Talk:Duchy of Troppau

Troppau

"Duke of Opava" and "Duchy of Opava" only appear one and eight times respectively on Google Book Search. A similar search of "Duke of Troppau" and "Duchy of Troppau" yields seventy and forty results respectively. When limited to 1950-2007, the results still greatly outnumber the whole results of the Opava form. Only two results show up on Scholar for "Duchy of Opava" and none for "Duke of Opava". "Duchy of Troppau" gives three in Scholar and "Duke of Troppau" gives five. Therefore I have moved the page to reflect English usage. Note also, a simple Google Search for Duke/Duchy of Troppau (-Wikipedia) gives a combined 1000+ results while Opava's results combined give less than 500. Charles 22:34, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Added de:Herzogtum Troppau interwiki. -- Matthead  DisOuß   14:05, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

• New search Duchy of Opava53 700 ghits, Duchy of Troppau31 800 ghits. Results from Books are less conclusive Duchy of Opava4040 ghits, Duchy of Troppau 4300 ghits. Of course, search for Opava returned 6 330 000 ghits, search for Troppau was with 135 000 ghits.

Encyclopedia Britannica uses Opava (First recorded as Oppavia in 1195, it was a principate and fief of the Bohemian crown in the early 14th century and later became the capital of Austrian Silesia.), Columbia uses Opava too (For a long period the interests of the Piast, Jagiellon, Přemysl (Opava), Luxembourg,.. and ..their stabilization alongside the properties of the Opava Přemysl family..).

According to WP:PLACE is clear, that widely accepted name is Duchy of Opava and I propose renaming.--Yopie (talk) 13:41, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

The historical place "Duchy of Troppau" is properly named, no matter what the Czechs call the city since 1918 or since 1945, after the expulsion (or worse) of all German-speaking locals. Besides, even the very first hit of your Google web search for the Opava variant yields this Wikipedia article, Duchy of Troppau, as you search for three words, and not the exact phrase in quotation marks. Also, web search is pointless here, as there are too many Wikipedia mirrors watering the results, see this. We need to search on Google Books, where "Duchy of Opava" is clearly outnumbered by "Duchy of Troppau". Same for Google Scholar "Duchy of Troppau" vs. "Duchy of Opava". Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) clearly states "If the place does not exist anymore, or the article deals only with a place in a period when it held a different name, the widely accepted historical English name should be used." And that always was Duchy of Troppau, and it still is Duchy of Troppau, despite attempts to alter the name retroactively. Besides, the Prince of Liechtenstein is "Duke of Troppau". -- Matthead  Discuß   19:31, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Clearly outnumbered? Difference is only 2,7% on Books, but simple Google is clearly 53:31 (for simplicity 140%). And time of Duchy of Opava was 1269 till 1848, we not talk about "expulsion of 1945", it´s you subjective POV. We are talking about fief of Bohemia (Czech), Premyslids rulers (Czech) Podiebrads (Czechs) etc., understand? Every English encyclopaedia is simple - Opava, not Troppau, so it is accepted name. Please, read Danzig/Gdansk vote, if you don't know about it and look at seals of Opava rulers (if you can read Gothic script, of course) Nicholas II Oppavensis, as they used titles as “dei gratia dux Opaviae”. Do you have any proof for your POV?--Yopie (talk) 00:18, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

So, is there any conclusion? --Silesianus (talk) 13:11, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

The move request and notice was improperly formed. Are the instructions at WP:RM not clear enough? Sigh. Adding below. older ≠ wiser 12:38, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. Appears to have gone stale. KiloT 20:56, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

---

Duchy of Troppau → Duchy of Opava – I don't know what the rationale for the move is. Only creating a proper listing for the move. older ≠ wiser 12:38, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Arguments are given in the previous thread. I'm not convinced - it seems to me using Opava here might be anachronistic.--Kotniski (talk) 12:14, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Sigil of first opavian duke Nicholas II from 1318 - SIGILLVM NICOLAI DVCIS OPAVIE - so, its not anachronism. --Silesianus (talk) 08:26, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Town sigil of Opava in 1311 - SIGILVM CIVIVM IN OPAVIA, etc. --Silesianus (talk) 08:33, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose. Google [1] [2] gives about twice as many hits for the present title as the proposed (note I've excluded Wikipedia and compliant mirrors) which is possibly not enough to be significant but certainly does not support a move. No rationale has been given to support a move. Andrewa (talk) 12:41, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

• Support Google says for Duchy of Opava [3] 54,000 results, for Duchy of Troppau [4] 13,900 results.
  • According to WP:PLACE, we can use Encyclopaedia Britannica as consultant, and EB uses Opava: "Opava, German Troppau, Polish Opawa, city, northeastern Czech Republic. It lies along the Opava River near the Polish border and is northwest of Ostrava, from which it is separated by part of the wooded Oder Hills. First recorded as Oppavia in 1195, it was a principate and fief of the Bohemian crown in the early 14th century and later became the capital of Austrian Silesia." (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/429572/Opava).
  • We can use other standard histories and scientific studies of the area in question. Results are:
    • Encyclopedia of the Middle Ages, Volume 2, By Richard Barrie Dobson: Duchy of Opava
    • The Cambridge medieval history, Volume 7: uses Opava again (BTW use of this book is recommended by WP:PLACE)
  • We simply can use modern name Opava. Or we can use historical name, used on seals and old parchments, as searched by Silesianus, and this name is Opava again. Or we can use name in official language in mediaeval Bohemia - Czech, and this name was and is Opava.
  • OK, Prince of Liechtenstein uses German name Troppau in his German title and I agree, that in article about him can be used Troppau, but in mediaeval and 20th century context is right to use Opava. --Yopie (talk) 17:07, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
  • The main reason for the opposite results to my searches is that these Google searches are for Duchy and the place name (Troppeau or Opava), rather than for the phrases Duchy of Troppeau and Duchy of Opava. Was this deliberate? What's the rationale? See below for why I think it's not an improvement. Andrewa (talk) 19:41, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Google search, exact phrase: Duchy of Troppau - 10,800 vs. Duchy of Opava - 8,880. --Silesianus (talk) 06:19, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

OK, that's getting closer. Second question: Why not exclude Wikipedia mirrors? Andrewa (talk) 09:41, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Don't know how. --Silesianus (talk) 12:12, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

• Support, aside from the Prince of Liechtenstein, most of the sources which use "Troppau" are from the 19th century or pre-world war II. Most modern sources appear to use Opava.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:21, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Yes, but the article is about the Duchy, not the place. It's not surprising if most references to the town to use the modern name, but for the Duchy use the old name... which is exactly the pattern shown by the Google searches when you consider both my set and the subsequent set together. No change of vote. Andrewa (talk) 19:41, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

I was referring specifically to the "Duchy of..." usage, NOT usage of town name. Also, google books are a far better test than a Google search here - especially since then you can see that overwhelming majority of sources which use "Duchy of Troppau" are from the 19th century - i.e. anachronistic.Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:10, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Some links would be good. See above for how easily Google can seem to produce opposite results, I'd guess Google books and Google scholar are the same. Andrewa (talk) 21:29, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

• Support. I think that Duchy of Opava is used equaly as Duchy of Troppau and Opava is current name (and as old as Troppau), so its sensible to move it to Duchy of Opava. --Silesianus (talk) 06:17, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
  • If they're used equally that's very interesting, and consistent with the results above. Opava may actually be older than Troppeu, but that isn't the question... The topic is Duchy of... (and I correct myself above, Duchy in this context is both a place and an institution) not the (closely related) place(s) referred to by the unqualified names.
  • But aren't both titles anachronistic (as claimed above)? And isn't the real issue here national rivalries? What about splitting the article, with separate articles on the old Duchies by their different names? The modern content of the article is minimal and incidental, and likely to remain so. Andrewa (talk) 21:29, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

In the time when Duchy of Opava exists, they use three names - Ducatus Opaviensis, Herzogtum Troppau and Kniežiectvie opavské. Their usage depends on language, in which was document written. No more, no less. --Silesianus (talk) 12:19, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose. See section above, no new arguments given in the move proposal. The article is about the "duchy of", not the city. In English, the duchy was and is known as "of Troppau", just like the modern day Prince of Liechtenstein is the "Duke of Troppau". It doesn't matter how the city is spelled nowadays, as the duchy ceased to exist before the Czech spelling came in use. Yet, some are desperately trying to conceal the German resp. German language history of places in modern day Slavic countries by promoting anachronistic use of names. See Danzig/Gdansk etc.. -- Matthead  Discuß   23:50, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Duchy of Opava is an anachronic? How ridiculous. Its older (or equaly old) as the german one. Look at the some of the oldest documents about duchy and stop babbling. --Silesianus (talk) 12:12, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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