Talk:Drake Jensen

Why is this page necessary?

Hello There,

First, I want to say that I am from Glace Bay and I don't hate gay people. Why do I say that? Because when you suggest that an article can be deleted the first thing people do is attack you as a hater.

I think it is great that Drake Jensen has gotten a music career started and is slowly gaining some fame. But we have to remember, this is an encyclopaedia, not a platform for advertising or promotion of people because you believe them worthy of note. They actually have to be noteworthy.

This article has had a lot of "fluffy" language added as of late. This indicates that the people editing this page are not for the integrity of Wikipedia, but for the image of Drake Jensen. You do him a disservice. Here are the facts about Drake from the resources I have:

He is a country singer. He is gay. he is from Glace Bay, NS. He is on the recording label: Soaring Eagle Productions. Which appears to be a small production company, if not run by Drake himself. He has released three albums, all through this tiny production firm or available for download.

These are not overly noteworthy events. I admit, the gossip to be had for a Gay Country music singer is there, but it is just that: Gossip. It is not an encyclopaedic note. If he was the last person to kill a wild albino platypus, that would be noteworthy. Releasing songs for download is not. There are people who do this by the hundreds everyday who do not have Wikipedia articles. I think it is great that he helps causes. But what you are doing by putting him on Wikipedia before he has any major accomplishments is making him the gay guy who sings country music instead of the artist that releases great songs and just got picked up by Sony for a contract or whatever his first major noteworthy accomplishing is.

Anyway, I would love to see more people from Glace Bay, hell, Nova Scotia, doing great and having an awesome music career worthy of note. Unfortunately, I and a few others cannot justify that right now for this person and I fear if people keep editing the way they are we will have to recommend deleting the article as a whole. Please keep it to the facts. Please keep it simple. And please just be reasonable. He maybe world famous to you, but he is not world famous to the world, yet. -Kirkoconnell (talk) 12:37, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I didn't write the article, just edited as my daily routine of looking at new articles. Simply put, he has multiple references from reliable sources. Thus, he passes WP:GNG. Personally, I do not think he passes as a musician. But by Wikipedia rules, I atleast think his article stays. The article has been alot worse, encyclopaedic wise as there was alot of fluff, but I and others have tried to remove it. If you disagree that he notable, I suggest you nominate it for deletion via WP:AfD. If you think some fluff still needs to be trimmed, edit away. Bgwhite (talk) 16:38, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

So what if he's gay, you make it seem that's the reason he's notable. He's notable because he's a musician not because he's a gay musician. The article should focus on all aspects of his life, while also mentioning he's gay because frankly that's obviously part of his life. Lets work together here and get a good article written about this man that shows that anyone can dream big, even in Glace Bay and see those dreams come true. After what he's been through, who deserves this more than Drake. BigCape2012 (talk) 18:52, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

To be fair, alot of the reference are because he came out as gay. I'm not exactly sure if that is good or bad. One one hand, somebody saying they are gay and generating publicity for it is sad because that is still treated as a big deal. On the other hand, being gay and a country singer is not something you see everyday in what is a "conservative" medium. Being gay in country music is still a "rarity". Either way, in my opinion, he has enough references to make him notable enough by Wikipedia rules. How the references came about should be irrelevant.

Also, BigCape, adding in stuff like, "Jensen is living proof that when you set out goals and strive for the top, dreams can come true" is what is referred to as fluff or peacock terminology. Kirkoconnell is right in saying "keep it to the facts". Just lay out the facts in an encyclopedic manner. How is Jensen living proof? There is no reference to that. One person's proof of living a dream is not another person's dream. Being born, completing records and singing at locations are facts in which references can be found and can't be interpreted a thousand ways. Bgwhite (talk) 20:53, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

I did not see this until now so sorry for the delay. First, Bgwhite has addressed my issues. But my point is still thus: Just because he is world famous to you does not make him world famous. I am glad he makes money playing music. Newsflash: millions of people have an album out and thousands make money at it. They are not all on Wikipedia. Why? Because they are not notable. I will agree to keep this here for the time being as I do believe in the "Be Bold" idea but I will be removing him as a notable person from Glace Bay, as he is not yet notable, and I submit that you are far to close to this to be able to edit this impartially. Your rhetoric clearly indicates bias and bias does not win in Wikipedia. -Kirkoconnell (talk) 15:55, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Oh and by you, I mean BigCape2012, not you Bgwhite, I thought you had valid points, enough to make me turn on my original position for deletion but not my position he should be removed as a notable person on the Glace Bay page. I set up a discussion on that on the Glace Bay talk page. -Kirkoconnell (talk) 16:21, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Kirk, if a person has a page on Wikipedia, I see no problem if they are listed as a notable person from <insert city>. They are notable by Wikipedia standards. Of course we are talking about Canada, where my in-laws are from. I see nothing good or notable from Canada :)

There is WP:ONEEVENT, where by a person is not notable if the person's only claim to fame is one event. This maybe the case here as without the refs to his coming out as gay, he wouldn't be notable. People become famous for a viral YouTube video or a murderer are good example of one event. One event cases at AfD are hard to predict as there seems to be no rhyme or reason why X gets deleted and Y remains even if the cases are similar. All but one ref is before his coming out. I'm not sure if Cashbox Canada are reliable refs as I'm haven't heard of it before. If you have doubts, take it to AfD and the matter will get settled. Bgwhite (talk) 23:40, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Point not taken. I did not want to get into Wikipedia guidelines for this as they tend to be taken in a negative or dictating light. One must remember that with the advent of the internet as a medium for just about every little bit of news. I am not overly confident in any of these resources linked. Even if so, there are guidelines as to what makes for a notable person. Here is a line of guidelines and answers for each Any Biography, Creative Professional or Entertainer. I did not make up the guidelines, I just use them... well as guidelines.

Any biography

The person has received a well-known and significant award or honor, or has been nominated for one several times. No.

The person has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field No.

Creative professionals

The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors. No.

The person is known for originating a significant new concept, theory or technique. No.

The person has created, or played a major role in co-creating, a significant or well-known work, or collective body of work, that has been the subject of an independent book or feature-length film, or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews. No.

The person's work either (a) has become a significant monument, (b) has been a substantial part of a significant exhibition, (c) has won significant critical attention, or (d) is represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums. No.

Entertainers Has had significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions. No.

Has a large fan base or a significant "cult" following. No.

Has made unique, prolific or innovative contributions to a field of entertainment No.

Okay. So he fails every test. What does this mean? Well he should probably be deleted. If you argument now is if he has a Wikipedia article that means he should be on the Glace Bay page as a notable person, I must change my position to suggesting this article be deleted. I was willing to allow it to exists on the idea that eventually he may get notable. But if you are going to apply that condition, I apply this result. Should I take this to arbitration?-Kirkoconnell (talk) 16:40, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Hehe, "Point not taken. I did not want to get into Wikipedia guidelines for this " then you go into and quote Wikipedia guidelines later. You can't disregard one guideline and follow another on your whims. Just remember, the guidelines you just quoted are when a person is "likely to be notable" and does not mean they are or are not notable. First thing mentioned at one of the pages you quote is the GNG at WP:BASIC. It is your right to file an AfD if you see fit. If you believe he is not notable, I highly suggest you do file an AfD as any more discussing by any party is no longer needed as everybody has stated their feelings. If an AfD is filed, it is BigCape's right to disagree and state why. Both of you have made compelling arguments for both keep and delete. I've tried to stay neutral and given options, so I don't want to say if he is or isn't notable. I don't think writing any more by anybody is going to do any good... I don't say that in a bad way, just people's opinions have been expressed. Bgwhite (talk) 21:08, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Note: I did not invoke Wikipedia policy into this, I was trying to stay out of it explicitly and then you quoted it to me forcing me to respond in kind. I agree, I see this as having been thoroughly discussed. I admit freely that everything here is a "guideline" as opposed to a rule, which is why I initially agreed to let this article stay but not the name on the Glace Bay page as a compromise. Well I did not want to get into this but I guess it is at the point where another set of eyes would be better to arbitrate.-Kirkoconnell (talk) 15:26, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Seems people want to keep the site.

Well seems people want to keep the site. I am not going to argue with them if that is the case. But I am also not fixing this page when things get out of control, again. I guess the thing to do now is to wait for Drake to actually become noteworthy or for people to mess this page up so much that it gets deleted due to it. Have a nice day-Kirkoconnell (talk) 12:13, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

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