Talk:Douglas Murray (author)/Archive 7

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Violation of WP:NPOV and WP:Balance.

If we consider the views of far-right individuals who praise him and give it such WP:UNDUEWEIGHT, then the views of his critics merits the same weight and WP:Relevance. Otherwise we risk the failure of WP:Balance.

Note that accusations of Antisemitism or Islamophobia are significant matters that cannot be overlooked when discussing the subject's reputation.

Springee, the line upholds WP:EXCEPTIONAL and WP:Notability it should not be even up to concensus on whether to include it or not because WP:NPOV policy is non-negotiable

182.183.58.243 (talk) 23:37, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Much of what you are trying to add was discussed in the past. Packing such contentious labels/views into the lead is problematic. That he is critical of Islam is a better way of saying it as it is closer to IMPARTIAL tone. Going beyond that, the quotes from the journalism sources that you provided don't describe Murray directly as Islamaphobic (they might in parts you didn't quote). The academic sources are "correspondence", basically the opinions of the authors and it's not established that the authors are sufficiently notable to use those opinions in the article lead. Finally, the MCB appears to be an advocacy organization. It's not clear they are an independent source for such a view. Again, perhaps in the article body but not the lead. Springee (talk) 03:28, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Well if we are to include the views of a not-so-notable author like Sohrab Ahmari and controversial activist like Ayaan Hirsi up in the lede then it is also problematic.

In the very least for the sake of WP:Neutral and WP:Balanced, the line "Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Sohrab Ahmari have praised Murray's work and writing on Islam in Europe. French philosopher Bernard-Henri Lévy has said of Murray, "Whether one agrees with him or not" he is "one of the most important public intellectuals today."" should be concisely reworded to "Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Sohrab Ahmari and Bernard-Henri Lévy have praised Murray's work." 182.183.58.243 (talk) 03:55, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Also the line I added does not has to be "He has been accused of being Islamophobic by academics and journalists." It can be joined with the before content "Critics claim his views and ideology are linked to far-right political ideologies, and accuse him of Islamophobia and promoting far-right conspiracy theories such as Eurabia, the Great Replacement, and Cultural Marxism. 182.183.58.243 (talk) 03:58, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

I honestly have an issue with lumping them all in as "critics", and saying that they "accuse" him, as many of those supposed critics are highly-respected researchers and academics, and they're not 'accusing' him. He has unequivocally and demonstrably promoted those ideologies, full stop. Including citing the biggest proponents of it, who are universally acknowledged to be conspiracy theorists. Both "critics" and "accuse" seem like borderline WP:WEASEL wording to me. Better just to say who's saying it, and not attempt to muddy the waters as to whether he actually does so. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 17:02, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

@Symmachus Auxiliarus I fully agree. In the very least, an appropriate rephrasing would be:

"His views and ideology are linked by some(Insert sources here) to far-right political ideologies, and he has been criticized of Islamophobia and promoting far-right conspiracy theories such as Eurabia, the Great Replacement, and Cultural Marxism.(Insert sources here).

On an important note, Ayaan Hirsi can hardly be taken as a neutral independent or respected individual, since her whole career lies around attacking Islam and Muslim countries so obviously she would support someone like Douglas Murray So mentioning her in the lede like that is just WP:UNDUE. 182.183.58.243 (talk) 18:03, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Maybe the article also needs input from other editors, @Apaugasma, @Bishonen, @Iskandar323, @Pincrete etc. 182.183.58.243 (talk) 18:25, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

I looked quickly through the archives and - while their are discussions about Murray's views and seeming endorsement of various conspiracy theories, I cannot see any discussion about 'accusations of Islamophobia' in the lead. Islamophobia is probably the most frequently made accusation against Murray. Only recently, Jonathan Freedland said of Murray's response to the present Isr-Gaza war: Witness the associate editor of the Spectator, Douglas Murray, who has long railed against what he sees as the threat that Islam and Muslims pose to Europe and the west. He is using the current crisis to press that case, telling one US interviewer this week that Humza Yousaf has “infiltrated our system”, and that he is not really first minister of Scotland, but rather “first minister of Gaza”. Murray has thoughts too on the future of Gaza, writing that “it could be a good time … to clear all the Palestinians from that benighted strip”. Murray said even worse things about Yousaf's wife, at a time when her (Scottish) mother was trapped in Gaza, and the wife is barely a public figure. Freedland - usually a moderate defender of Israel - writes this in a piece referring to the vultures bent on exploiting Jewish and Muslim pain. Clearly it's an oped and doesn't specifically accuse Murray of "Islamophobia", but it gives a flavour of how Murray is viewed by critics (including some moderate Conservatives).

So, I broadly endorse that Murray's Islamophobia is an apt subject for the article, BUT, 1). it needs to be covered in the body of the article before being added to the lead. 2). I haven't checked the specific offered sources so am not able to comment on their worth either way. but it should be covered Pincrete (talk) 12:24, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Hello @Pincrete, in the Criticism section, it is indeed covered. And the sources are , along with another that I added before it got removed without justified edit summary,

There are explicit mention of Islamophobia and anti-Muslim sentiment which is essentially the same thing.

Considering the lede is a summary of most important point and like I mentioned above that "accusations of Antisemitism or Islamophobia are significant matters that cannot be overlooked when discussing the subject's reputation", it deserves a brief inclusion. 182.183.58.243 (talk) 15:33, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

There are explicit mention of Islamophobia and anti-Muslim sentiment which is essentially the same thing.

The word Islamophobia makes people conflate criticism of Islam with anti-Muslim bigotry, which is very beneficial to the Islamic theocrats of the world. Torr3 (talk) 03:16, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

In the archives there was a discussion on this topic. My rough read was that there was a consensus against using the term in Wiki-voice. To be clear, he is critical if Islam and that should be in the lead. However, since this is a BLP and Islamaphobic is an contentious LABEL we need to be careful about applying it. If the sources don't explicitly call him Islamophobic (not in titles/headings) then we shouldn't. When looking at sources you need to ask if the source if an opinion, is the source biased etc. None of this says we shouldn't put criticism of his comments on Islam in the body of the article. Instead the issue is we shouldn't use contentious labels in the lead in most cases. Springee (talk) 16:14, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Looking at the reflist, this appears to be the same list that was recently added to the lead. One of the academic sources has basically no impact (cited by 1). The other does have more citations (72). That said, what does the paper actually say about Murray? Remember, if the label is to be applied to Murray himself it must be explicitly done by the source. As those sources are behind a paywall I can't say if they actually support the claim. Absent a quoted paragraph I wouldn't be OK given we are dealing with a BLP here. Sources like Sludge and MEE are not good sources for establishing weight for a controversial LABEL given their own strong biases. That said, MME doesn't call Murray Islamophobic. The Sludge article also doesn't call Murray Islamophobic. It says he is/was a member of the Intellectual Dark Web and then quotes someone else who claims the IDW has members who are Islamophobic. The Intercept doesn't describe Murray as Islamophobic. So none of the non-paywalled academic/media sources actually support what you want to do. Finally we have an advocacy group, MCB. Even it doesn't actually call Murray Islamophobic. It claims some of his ideas/assertions are Islamophobic but never says he is. Something about Islam could/should be in the lead but per LABEL it can't be "Islamophobic". Springee (talk) 16:30, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

@Springee look for instance, if Mush whose primary focus is about businessman, investment etc and is not actively being Anti-Semitic or Transphobic but has made some contentious comments, his lede contains these loaded words cause of those meagre comments. Now Murray on the other hand, is known for political commentary and is thus more liable for these type of criticisms if he is reputed to be.

Also Wikipedia articles on, for instance, terrorist attack by muslims no matter even if the individual does not know much about the religion, the article lead contains terms like "Islamic terrorist" depite it being in contravention to WP:CONTENTIOUS. 182.183.58.243 (talk) 16:41, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Along the lines of WP:OTHER, just because one article does something doesn't mean it is correct for this article (or even the article that does it). Springee (talk) 16:53, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

After reading the WP:OTHER, regarding the "Trouble arises when legitimate comparisons are disregarded without thought or consideration of the Wikipedia:Five pillars", The lede is just not adhereing to the second point.

If you think that including the term Islamophobic is just not right, then in the very least it could be :

"Critics claim his views and ideology are linked to far-right political ideologies and anti-Muslim sentiment, and accuse him of promoting far-right conspiracy theories such as Eurabia, the Great Replacement, and Cultural Marxism."

What do you think? 182.183.58.243 (talk) 17:06, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

I think you are adding "and anti-Muslim sentiment" to the existing sentence. I don't see an issue with that. Springee (talk) 17:36, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Also in the Criticism section first line last sentence. "His fans have described him as a defender of free speech" I think it violates WP:NOTOPINION and WP:RS. Can it be removed? 182.183.58.243 (talk) 17:49, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

As a counter point for impartiality it should stay in some form. I'm not sure it's in the best spot but it shouldn't be removed outright. Springee (talk) 20:00, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

For transparency, 182.183.58.243 asked me about this specific issue on my talk page, for some reason. The source is a passing mention in a softball interview conducted by the paper's restaurant critic. If Charlotte Ivers's assessment of the opinion of Murrays's fans is relevant, it should be possible to both attribute this as her opinion and also indicate to readers why it is significant. To include this solely as a "counter point for impartiality" based on this flimsy source is false balance and nakedly promotes Murray's self-aggrandizing anti-"culture warrior" public image. The interview specifically mentions that image, so ignoring the substance of the interview to include this blandly flattering tid-bit is absurd. Wikipedia isn't a platform for this kind of thing, nor is is this kind of isolated factoid helpful to readers without context. Grayfell (talk) 22:50, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Since the source is flimsy and this is presented as a bland factoid devoid of even the source's own context, I have removed this. The source and the rest of this article both already indicate that "free speech" is loaded and too vague to really be meaningful here. The willingness of his "fans" to parrot thought-terminating cliches is not encyclopedically noteworthy unless reliable sources bother to explain why it is encyclopedically noteworthy. If this is restored, it should use a better source and provide context. Grayfell (talk) 23:11, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

As of writing, it says in the lead that Murray's views and ideology is linked to far-right political ideologies and conspiracy theories, if I understood it correctly. I might have lacked attention, but I read the sentence multiple times it wasn't really until close scrutiny that I realized that it doesn't actually say that Murray promotes conspiracy theories, just that he is linked to these things. It's a pretty strange accusation. Everyone is linked to everyone. Social democrats are linked to communists. Is it relevant?
I do not think Murray believes in conspiracy theories, and he considers himself a conservative. If this was in a separate chapter about criticism against him, and you wanted to have a paragraph that explains how he is perceived by his political opponents and some people in academia (mainly social sciences?), then fine, but this is in the lead about the guy. And it's in a sentence that starts off like it's attempting to characterize Murray's views and ideology, but shoots off in this (as I see it) weird irrelevant direction. At least make it distinct what are Murray's own views (that he would sign off on), and what are the mean things that others have said about him. I think it is generally unethical to describe someone's views in a way that they wouldn't agree with, especially if it's meant to be an information piece and not an opinion piece. Torr3 (talk) 02:54, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

We cannot truly know what he considers himself, nor does it matter. All we can know is what he says and does. Per many sources, through his words and actions, he shares, promotes, and legitimizing fringe conspiracy theories. Your opinion that this is "a weird tangent" is at odds with many reliable sources which are already cited in this article. We attempt to summarize those sources neutrally. Dismissing critical sources as "his opponents" is a mistake. We are not citing them because someone has decided that they are his opponents, we are citing them because they are reliable sources. We want sources which are willing to discuss topics critically. Therefor, we want sources which will look at Murray's words and actions and come to conclusions for us about those things. That's how good articles are built.

For this and other reasons, it's generally discouraged to confine critical content to a 'criticism section'. Murray is encyclopedically noteworthy because other people have written about him, not merely because he is prolific. If those sources about him are not flattering, that's not a problem we should solve, and especially not with misguided attempts at false balance. Murray has many outlets for self aggrandizing. This should not be one of them. Grayfell (talk) 05:21, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

You make some valid points, and I agree with much of what you said. I don't think you understood my main points. I should have probably phrased it differently. The lead doesn't say that Murray shares, promotes or legitimizes conspiracy theories, it says that his ideology and views are linked to the promotion of conspiracy theories. What does that even mean? He doesn't promote conspiracy theories himself, but he secretly hires other people to do it for him? Torr3 (talk) 02:51, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

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