Talk:Doubting Antiquity School

Title, maintenance

I have moved the main title of this wiki to the "Doubting Antiquity School," rather than under the awkward pinyin of "Yigupai." For example, no one in English refers to the New Culture Movement in its pinyin form.

Also, I do not know how useful the long list of minor actors in the school/movement is, but somehow compacting it (by formatting or otherwise) would be probably help the article. TheSlowLife (talk) 07:20, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

The deciphering of the Oracle bone script dealt a major blow against the Yigupai (Doubting Antiquity School)

The deciphering of the Oracle bone script dealt a major blow against the Yigupai (Doubting Antiquity School), since the Oracle bones mostly agree with what the Shiji said about the Shang dynasty.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ERnrQq0bsPYC&pg=PA389&dq=Oracle+bone+script&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-5fRUpfXN4ugsQScpoCIDQ&ved=0CDkQ6wEwAA#v=onepage&q=Oracle%20bone%20script&f=false

http://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/mulu/oracle.html

06:01, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

other anti Yigupai evidence

Title Early Chinese Religion: Part One: Shang Through Han (1250 BC-220 AD) (2 Vols) Early Chinese Religion Editors John Lagerwey, Marc Kalinowski Publisher BRILL, 2008 ISBN 9004168354, 9789004168350

http://books.google.com/books?id=Idhyr1hqS0kC&pg=PA48#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Idhyr1hqS0kC&pg=PA48&dq=I+have+already+raised+some+issues+connected+to+the+interpretation+of+archaeologically+recovered+evidence+through+the+lens+of+later+sources;+scholarship+of+the+past+decade+has+focused+on+a+specific+aspect+of+that+relationship,+pertaining+to+the+dating+of+received+texts+used+in+such+interpretations.+In+this+regard,+the+dominant+position+in+the+early+China+field+from+the+second+quarter+of+the+20th+century+was+occupied+by+a+school+of+thought+known+as+yigu+or+“doubting+antiquity,”+characterizing+a+skeptical+view+holding+that+most+received+accounts+of+the+distant+past+were+in+fact+post-Qin+fabrications+or+deliberate+distortions,+serving+vari-+ous+interests+of+their+authors+or+of+the+imperial+state.19+In+recent+decades,+accelerating+during+the+1990s+and+the+current+decade,+archaeologists+have+found+in+pre-imperial+tombs+dated+as+early+as+the+4th+century+BC+caches+of+texts+that+match+received+versions+that+the+yigu+approach+had+maintained+to+be+of+much+later+date.+The+cumulative+force+of+these+discoveries+has+been+to+raise+the+credibility+of+attempts+to+interpret+archaeologically+recovered+evidence+in+terms+of+the+historical+outlines+drawn+in+received+texts.+The+1995+publication+by+Li+Xueqin—perhaps+the+most+influential+scholar+of+early+China+in+the+People’s+Republic+of+China—of+the+book+Zouchu+yigu+shidai+,+or+“coming+out+from+the+era+of+doubting+antiquity,”+signaled+that+the+skeptical+methodology+of+mid-20th+century+scholarship+was+no+longer+a+dominant+trend+in+China.20&hl=en&sa=X&ei=X001VPygJ5DLsASq6YGABg&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=I%20have%20already%20raised%20some%20issues%20connected%20to%20the%20interpretation%20of%20archaeologically%20recovered%20evidence%20through%20the%20lens%20of%20later%20sources%3B%20scholarship%20of%20the%20past%20decade%20has%20focused%20on%20a%20specific%20aspect%20of%20that%20relationship%2C%20pertaining%20to%20the%20dating%20of%20received%20texts%20used%20in%20such%20interpretations.%20In%20this%20regard%2C%20the%20dominant%20position%20in%20the%20early%20China%20field%20from%20the%20second%20quarter%20of%20the%2020th%20century%20was%20occupied%20by%20a%20school%20of%20thought%20known%20as%20yigu%20or%20“doubting%20antiquity%2C”%20characterizing%20a%20skeptical%20view%20holding%20that%20most%20received%20accounts%20of%20the%20distant%20past%20were%20in%20fact%20post-Qin%20fabrications%20or%20deliberate%20distortions%2C%20serving%20vari-%20ous%20interests%20of%20their%20authors%20or%20of%20the%20imperial%20state.19%20In%20recent%20decades%2C%20accelerating%20during%20the%201990s%20and%20the%20current%20decade%2C%20archaeologists%20have%20found%20in%20pre-imperial%20tombs%20dated%20as%20early%20as%20the%204th%20century%20BC%20caches%20of%20texts%20that%20match%20received%20versions%20that%20the%20yigu%20approach%20had%20maintained%20to%20be%20of%20much%20later%20date.%20The%20cumulative%20force%20of%20these%20discoveries%20has%20been%20to%20raise%20the%20credibility%20of%20attempts%20to%20interpret%20archaeologically%20recovered%20evidence%20in%20terms%20of%20the%20historical%20outlines%20drawn%20in%20received%20texts.%20The%201995%20publication%20by%20Li%20Xueqin—perhaps%20the%20most%20influential%20scholar%20of%20early%20China%20in%20the%20People’s%20Republic%20of%20China—of%20the%20book%20Zouchu%20yigu%20shidai%20%2C%20or%20“coming%20out%20from%20the%20era%20of%20doubting%20antiquity%2C”%20signaled%20that%20the%20skeptical%20methodology%20of%20mid-20th%20century%20scholarship%20was%20no%20longer%20a%20dominant%20trend%20in%20China.20&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Idhyr1hqS0kC&pg=PA48&dq=19+Leading+names+associated+with+the+rise+of+this+view+are+Gu+Jiegang++in+China+and+Bernhard+Karlgren+in+the+West.+20+Li+Xueqin,+Zouchu+yigu+shidai(Shenyang,+1995).+Li’s+book+is+basically+a+collection+of+previously+published+studies,+but+the+lead+essay,+which+shares+the+title+of+the+book,+constitutes+a+manifesto+rejecting+as+passé+the+methodologies+of+the+yigu+approach.+This+paradigm+shift,+if+it+may+be+so+termed,+has+had+varying+impact+outside+of+China,+and+some+scholars+in+the+West+remain+wary+of+correlations+between+archaeological+evidence+and+the+testimony+of+received+texts.+For+a+pronounced+example,+see+Robert+Bagley,+“Shang+archaeology,”+in+Cambridge+history,+pp.+124–231.+In+practice,+the+discipline+and+persuasiveness+of+such+correlations+must+be+assessed+individually,+based+on+rigor+of+argumentation+and+the+degree+to+which+claims+are+asserted+with+certainty+matching+the+strength+of+evidence+presented.+However,+researchers+trained+in+the+yigu+approach,+of+which+I+am+one,+can+no+longer+dismiss+the+evidence+of+received+texts+on+the+basis+of+a+presumed+late+date+of+composition.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pE01VNHzL6bksASlxYGYBg&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=19%20Leading%20names%20associated%20with%20the%20rise%20of%20this%20view%20are%20Gu%20Jiegang%20%20in%20China%20and%20Bernhard%20Karlgren%20in%20the%20West.%2020%20Li%20Xueqin%2C%20Zouchu%20yigu%20shidai(Shenyang%2C%201995).%20Li’s%20book%20is%20basically%20a%20collection%20of%20previously%20published%20studies%2C%20but%20the%20lead%20essay%2C%20which%20shares%20the%20title%20of%20the%20book%2C%20constitutes%20a%20manifesto%20rejecting%20as%20passé%20the%20methodologies%20of%20the%20yigu%20approach.%20This%20paradigm%20shift%2C%20if%20it%20may%20be%20so%20termed%2C%20has%20had%20varying%20impact%20outside%20of%20China%2C%20and%20some%20scholars%20in%20the%20West%20remain%20wary%20of%20correlations%20between%20archaeological%20evidence%20and%20the%20testimony%20of%20received%20texts.%20For%20a%20pronounced%20example%2C%20see%20Robert%20Bagley%2C%20“Shang%20archaeology%2C”%20in%20Cambridge%20history%2C%20pp.%20124–231.%20In%20practice%2C%20the%20discipline%20and%20persuasiveness%20of%20such%20correlations%20must%20be%20assessed%20individually%2C%20based%20on%20rigor%20of%20argumentation%20and%20the%20degree%20to%20which%20claims%20are%20asserted%20with%20certainty%20matching%20the%20strength%20of%20evidence%20presented.%20However%2C%20researchers%20trained%20in%20the%20yigu%20approach%2C%20of%20which%20I%20am%20one%2C%20can%20no%20longer%20dismiss%20the%20evidence%20of%20received%20texts%20on%20the%20basis%20of%20a%20presumed%20late%20date%20of%20composition.&f=false

Contradiction: Liang Qichao

This article describes Liang Qichao as both a major critic of the Doubting Antiquity School and also a "prominent figure" within the movement. Well, which was he? This should be corrected to explain clearly his position. Philologick (talk) 07:44, 6 June 2022 (UTC)