Talk:Dorothy (opera)

Synopsis Needed

I don't have access to a copy of the libretto at the moment. The best sources are the two or three plot summaries already floating about online at sites like the Gilbert & Sullivan archive. I'd rather not be the one to have to paraphrase someone else's summary, though. Anyone else up to it? Or perhaps they have a libretto or have seen the DVD that's floating about? --Anivron 07:21, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Cast lists

Should the article point out that Lillian Russell played the title role in the US production? Any other notable cast members? --Ssilvers 14:56, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I suppose so, although I must admit that while I've read up a lot on all these somewhat forgotten composers and their works, I must admit really don't recognize a lot of names outside of the recurring Savoy leads. So other than her, I wouldn't be able to tell you who is notable. --Anivron 17:52, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Why not just include the full cast list with links for the notables? It's informative, and can't suffer from link death (though where I had put it may be questionable). User:Vanished user 12:44, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Another notable is Furneaux Cook, from the original production. User:Vanished user 12:50, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I do not agree that Cook was particularly notable. His most notable role seems to have been this one in Dorothy. With DOC, he was just in touring companies. He didn't create roles at the Savoy. But, if you want to list him, fine. I think there are probably over 100 Savoyards who I could argue were more notable than cook (there are over 2,000 listed in the Who's Who). --Ssilvers 12:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

OK. Note that the cast you had put up was not even the original cast--it was the reconstituted cast, after the production had moved under Leslie's management. So it's a little complicated for this show. Also, most of the cast are not notable, and I wonder whether it makes sense to start adding cast lists for all these Victorian British musicals. It would require a huge amount of work, and I really think we don't want to go down that road. I'm trying to take the point of view of a person who doesn't know the show. What do they want to know: 1. Synopsis; 2. Some background, including maybe the most notable, linked artists; 3. What were the most famous songs from the show; 4. Links to Midis, additional info etc. I don't think there can be a link death problem with any of these shows: These pages with the midi files and cast lists are not going anywhere. Coles has put together a website that should survive even his death. --Ssilvers 12:52, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Google searches are turning up about half notable in that list. For instance. So... What should we do? User:Vanished user 12:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I do not agree that they are notable. As I said above, there are over 2,000 savoyards in the Who's who. I have done a few dozen articles, but look at Marie Tempest's bio. She's notable! --Ssilvers 12:59, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

With the vast explosion of material on the web, the outcome of a google search does not demonstrate that someone is "notable." Obviuosly, if someone fails to turn up on google, it's a sure bet that they're not notable. But a lot of mentions on the web doesn't mean that a useful article can be written about them. I agree with Ssilvers that there are probably a 100 or more Savoyards with more distinguished careers than Cook's. The article is much better without trying to put the cast into the list of roles. If it's worth doing at all, I would make a separate section, as we have done for the Savoy operas. Marc Shepherd 13:38, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, but a large number of roles in Monckton, the lesser Savoy Operas, and G&S may make them notable enough for this project. But as this isn't my field of expertise, I'll leave it to Ssilvers, whose expertise it very much seems to be. User:Vanished user 17:18, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Synopsis again

If someone could just expand the synopsis a little, this article would be B-class. -- Ssilvers 02:34, 26 June 2007 (UTC)==

Queries

• Revivals: I cannot find any reference to revivals of Dorothy after 1908, having searched in the archives of The Times, The Manchester Guardian, The Observer, The Daily Express and The Daily Mirror. Is there a citation for the statement in the article that the piece "enjoyed numerous revivals until about 1940"?

this says that since 1940 revivals have been rare. -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:26, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm. "enjoyed numerous revivals until about 1940" ain't the same as "since 1940 revivals have been rare". The latter statement is manifestly correct, but the former? As noted above, I've looked in the archives of five UK national papers and found not a sausage about Dorothy after 1908 except for a BBC radio transmission specially done for broadcasting (The Times, Thursday, 29 July 1937, p. 12) Tim riley (talk) 15:24, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Feel free to revise appropriately. Of course, there have been quite a few amateur revivals too, as a Google search will show. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:00, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

• Nell Gwynne: The article says that it was a flop, but according to The Musical Times obit for Cellier (1 Feb 1892, p. 90) Nell Gwynn was never produced. There is nothing in The Times about such a work on the stage. Tim riley (talk) 12:06, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Nell Gwynne was produced at Prince's Theatre, Manchester; 17 October 1876 (24 perfs). http://www.musicaltheatreguide.com/composers/cellier/alfred_cellier.htm See this: http://books.google.com/books?id=_coUAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PA13&lpg=RA2-PA13&dq=%22Alfred+Cellier%22+%22Nell+Gwynne%22&source=bl&ots=V_-oykv3DQ&sig=xBQBtpOW5Vv7Pf_dL-Q-Id7VIxQ&hl=en&ei=LALeSdCNMqPulQeWv9GgDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3 See also this: https://www.gsarchive.net/whowaswho/L/LavernePattie.htm Of course, obituaries are necessarily written in haste, often based on what the family tells the reporter.... -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:09, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

FYI, see this NY Times review, for another description of the work: http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9D05E3D7103DE433A2575AC0A96E9C94649ED7CF

Whoops! You're quite right, and I ought to have checked in The Manchester Guardian archives, where it is duly recorded (23 October 1876, p. 8). One is all too prone to assume that all Victorian (and later) theatre happened in London. Peccavi Tim riley (talk) 15:05, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

• "Queen of My Heart": The first night reviews state that Coffin had nothing to sing. The big hit from the show was Coffin's ballad, "Queen of My Heart". The 1908 Times review says that the piece was nearly a flop until a ballad was interpolated. Shall explore further and add as appropriate. Tim riley (talk) 15:58, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Later: done. The Times 1908 reviewer was correct. Tim riley (talk) 09:51, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

• "Hark For'ard!" This song is mentioned in the article as "Hark For'ard!" and "Hark Forward!" Anyone know which is correct? Tim riley (talk) 09:51, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

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