Talk:Donets Governorate

Requested move 20 July 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page to any particular title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 20:55, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

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Donets Governorate → Donetsian Governorate – This is an article about a political entity which was named after the river/region, not an entity which is related to the river itself. Thus, it's more appropriate to use the word Donetsian as an adjective, and not Donets which is a noun. Ιγκόρ (talk) 18:57, 20 July 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. Dekimasuよ! 20:57, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Oppose, I do not think there are any sources using this proposed name.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:47, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

I do not think that there are a lot of sources in English at all. Before that, the article was named Donetsk Governorate (and lots of websites are still using this name), which is quite funny considering the fact that the city got its current name only after the WW2. Summarizing all of that, I guess the main problem is the fact that the word донецкий refers to the river (Russian: Донец), the region (Russian: Донетчина), and the city (Russian: Донецк). In this case we are talking about the region, and not about the river, like in Donets Basin (Russian: Донецкий басейн), and the city, like in Donetsk Airport (Russian: Донецкий аэропорт). One can see this as some kind of reverse of what we see with the word Russian. The Russian language (Russian: Русский язык) and, for example, the Russian citizenship (Russian: Российское гражданство) are translated differently. It's all about semantics. — Ιγκόρ (talk) 21:48, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

Move back to Donetsk Governorate per WP:COMMONNAME (of adjectival form of Donets in general). "Donetsian" is a misleading made-up term, but the nom is correct that the current title is also misleading, implying it has to do with governance of the river.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:21, 21 July 2018 (UTC); re-commented below. 03:26, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

But the name is derived from the river; the city of Donetsk was only founded in 1916 as Yuzovka, renamed in the 1950s, long after the governorate was gone.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:48, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

It would be incorrect. The city had different name at that time and it was not even the capital of the polity. I'm not the one who invented that term; check this book or this one, for example. As I said above, this mistake happened because the word донецкий can refer to the river, region, and the city at the same time. The city was named after the region, not reverse. — Ιγκόρ (talk) 07:57, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

Your sources (1) and (2) merely show that some people have used "Donetsian" as a word in English. They do not refer to a Donetsian Governate.-- Toddy1 (talk) 23:46, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

That's because my motive was to demonstrate that I did not invent that term. Most sources about the theme are written either in Ukrainian or Russian anyway. As I said before, lots of sources in English are still using the name Donetsk Governate. I guess, in this particular case, one just needs to translate it according to English grammar. — Ιγκόρ (talk) 07:56, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

"Donetsk" is a problem term. Before the communist takeover there was a Donetsk District (Донецкий округ) in Don Voisko Oblast - see census. The administrative centre of the district was Kamenskaya.-- Toddy1 (talk) 23:46, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

Not Donetsk (that's clear, it's related to one of the cites with that name); the problem is донецкий (see my explanation above). First, that one is about some different polity (check that map; it controlled different territory) which just shares the name. It's disappointed that Demoscope Weekly made such an error. I could have accepted the name Donets District, but Donetsk District is definitely incorrect. — Ιγκόρ (talk) 07:56, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

In that case, stick with Donets Governorate despite it being imperfect. It's an imperfect world, and using "Donetsian" is WP:OR.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:26, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.