Talk:Doggerland

Existence past 6000 BC?

Prehistoric Britain § Mesolithic cites Cunliffe (2012) to the effect that Doggerland may have lasted significantly longer than 6000 BC. I'm not an expert, so I'm hesitant to change the article. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 16:31, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Gaffney et al, Europe's Lost World, the Rediscovery of Doggerland, CBA Research Report 2009, says p. xix that it was lost by 6000 BC. This is more recent and more authoritative, although Cunliffe could be cited as an alternative opinion. Dudley Miles (talk) 19:16, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

@Dudley Miles: Thank you. I don't have Cunliffe (2012), but I suspect that he cites other research (being an archaeologist, not a geoscientist), so it would probably be better to cite that research instead of him. While 2012 is of course more recent than 2009, the research cited by him may very well not be, and it might have been refuted, so your judgment makes sense to me. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 22:14, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes sorry I thought for some reason Cunliffe was 2006. I do have his book. It does not have citations and the only source about Doggerland in further reading is dated 1998, B. J. Coles, "Doggerland: A Speculative Survey", Proceedings of the Prehistoric Society. Dudley Miles (talk) 22:30, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

diff Time Team removal.

Two editors have removed the long-standing sentence on the Time Team programme on this. Both are I think American, and may not be aware what Time Team is, or how popular. I think it should be restored (not necessarily as "in popular culture"). What do other people think? Johnbod (talk) 13:55, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Note there is a section above about this, though it does not address this issue. Johnbod (talk) 13:56, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

I've reverted the change, and amended the subsection to read "In media". Of course the reference to the Time Team documentary should be maintained - not all TV programmes are trivial. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:02, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Many thanks! Looking at the history, it had been here since 2007 in similar form. I also see there used to be several other cultural references or depictions mentioned, at least some of which seem worth having to me. I'll give the section as at below if people want to comment on individual cases. Johnbod (talk) 14:04, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

• List as at December 2016:
• a) The "Mammoth Journey" episode of the BBC television programme Walking with Beasts is partly set on the dry bed of the southern North Sea.
• b) The area featured in the "Britain's Drowned World" episode of the Channel 4 Time Team documentary series.
• c) The first chapter of Edward Rutherfurd's novel Sarum describes the flooding of Doggerland.
• d) Science fiction author Stephen Baxter's Northland trilogy is set in an alternative timeline in which Doggerland (Northland in the books) is never inundated.
• e) The opening song of Ian Anderson's 2014 album, Homo Erraticus, is titled "Doggerland," and provides a first person narrative from the point of view of the prehistoric people who might have lived there.
• f) Young adult-writer Ted Garvin's "Doggerland" is set in Doggerland.

References

-My own thoughts are that all of b to e are worth having. Not sure how notable f is, but no great objection. Johnbod (talk) 14:09, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

I'm not keen on "In popular culture" sections generally, but I can see some merit in those particular examples. What would be good, of course, would be to find references that specifically discuss those (or similar) examples, to show the (limited, but real) growth in the awareness of Doggerland in British (or wider) culture. WP:IPC is worth reading. The Time Team programme is different - it was a notable report, on a popular programme, about real archaeological work. (Obviously you know that, but some of our US friends may not.) Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:52, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

The general rule, as I understand it (and which is of course frequently ignored) is that popular culture items should only be added if there is evidence of their notability for the article in reliable sources. I have added a note for the Time Team programme, but I do not think the other items should be restored without references showing that they are notable for Doggerland. Dudley Miles (talk) 15:13, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Origin of name

I see this was discussed ten years ago. But without reliable source it is just Original Research which is against Wikipedia policy. The Encyclopaedia Brittanica does discuss the issue which I seem to recall could be a reliable source for Wikipedia- although the wording in the article would then need to change. Dakinijones (talk) 18:15, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

What aspect do you need a source for? The naming of Dogger Bank from "Dogger" (which would be a matter for the Dogger Bank article), or the naming of "Doggerland" after the Dogger Bank (for which a source seems to me to be unnecessary, as it's obvious). Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:08, 3 February 2021 (UTC) PS: Source now added, for avoidance of any confusion. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:23, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

New source

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/aug/01/doggerland-lost-atlantis-of-the-north-sea-gives-up-its-ancient-secrets -- Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:24, 1 August 2021 (UTC)