Talk:Diogenes/Archive 1

Archive 1

The things you own...

I just read this exchange on Slashdot in which someone claims that Tyler Durden's phrase “The things you own wind up owning you” originates with Diogenes. Can anyone support or refute this claim? It is an interesting pop culture reference if it is true. ―BenFrantzDale 14:12, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Bust in the Capitol

Which capitol?

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—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.114.60.186 (talk • contribs) 07:57, 3 December 2006 (UTC). According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_self-reflection#Classical_antiquity, it was Socrates (not Plato) who defined humans as "featherless bipeds". Of course, Socrates never wrote anything down, and it was Plato who quoted Socrates as saying such.

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Is this the Diogenes who used to masturbate in the marketplace?

yes funkendub

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My source says that actually Diogenes did not live in the tub, but in a small hut. Where is the truth? Ruziklan 20:46, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

There is no "truth" as regards Diogenes. There are many stories and anecdotes; the most complete of these is the "biography" (perhaps little more than a collection of anecdotes) by Diogenes Laertes. funkendub

Who is diogenes and why is he important? --68.252.162.198 22:50, 26 September 2005 (UTC)Sara

Diogenes was an important philosopher in ancient Greece, around the time of Plato. He was a member of the school of Cynics, who were highly critical of social mores as being in conflict with nature. Like Socrates, he had an important impact not merely through his words but through is unconventional way of life. Jeremy J. Shapiro 02:27, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Actually, there probably was no organized "school of cynics." The whole point of Cynicism was its emphasis of self-reliance. funkendub

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What does anybody know about Nietzche's The Gay Science? I think he was using Diogenes as a tool in in his famous "god is dead" passage. Does anyone know anything?

I can say with a good degree of certainty that "the madman" who goes through the marketplace with a lantern "looking for god" is Nietzsche's then contemporary version of Diogenes who was said to have carried a lantern "looking for an honest man." I lack the grammatical cunning, ability to settle my schizophrenic writing tendencies and work ethic to add this bit to the article properly, but I hope that someone with more confidence than I (and hopefully just as much repect for the article) does.

A Form of Skeptism (Diogenes the Dog)

I Have read another book "Philosophy: For Beginners" by Richard Osborne, though it is not clearly stated, Diogenes and Aristotle were probably contemporaries but i dont think Plato and Diogenes where.

    Form of Skeptism:
     In 323bc ALexander the Great died. Athens rose against Macedonia, and because of his     
     (Aristotle)years of tutor, a charge of impiety was brought against Aristotle. No Lover    
     of hemlock, he quietly left Athens, and died two years later.. probably 325-326 bc

Meanwhile, back in the Academy and the Lyceum, things werent going so well... The confident questioning outlook of the citizen-aristocrat like Plato has gone.

With Antisthenesa a new Skeptism arises, whih was to be absorbed into the Academy in its years of decline. He Argued that it was impossible to make significant statements, example "What I am now saying is a Lie" <-- if this is true its false and if its false its true, true or false?

Clever Paradox-mongering like this bacame fashionable.

A colorful descipline of Antisthenes was Diogenes (c. 350 bc) He lived a life as primitive as a dog. From the Greek "kuvikos" = dog-like, we get the word Cynism. BATA

Diogenes, Plato and Aristotle were all alive and, at one point or another, living in Athens at the same time. funkendub 21:43, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Another anecdote

During the big commotion, as the Athenians started building the Long Walls (for defence), Diogenes was seen rolling his tub to and fro in the city. When asked, he said that he didn't want to be less active than the others. If someone finds a source for this, it would be good to mention. In primary school classes, in Greece, it is the most important anecdote told on him. Hoverfish 18:17, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

This anecdote (you have it mostly correct) is one of many to be found in Diogenes Laertes "biography"--really a collection of stories about ancient philosophers and rulers. Leartes wrote hundreds of years after the death of the Kynic. funkendub 21:45, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Performance Artist

Performance artist? Come on now, that's anachronistic in the extreme. The whole "dog theme" section needs some real attention. If there's no objection I'll clean it up. --Hippolytus 15:22, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

"eaten in the marketplace" Was this considered taboo in ancient greece? If anyone has information on this, please post it on my discussion page as it might help me understand a certain passage in Talmud. ThanksWolf2191 21:59, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Death is Life?

Why is "Death" underneath "Life"? They're antonyms, they should be seperate main categories. "Death" has enough content in it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.174.2.76 (talk) 07:27, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Masturbation?

When asked how to avoid lust of the flesh, Diogenes began to masturbate in answer. It took him a while to rub one out but when he did it was magnificent. The load went ten feet into a innocent bystanders eye. When rebuked for doing so, he replied, "If only I could soothe my hunger by rubbing my belly."

REALLY? C'mon. Someone check this out. 165.190.89.154 06:14, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Well as far as the "load went ten feet" part, that was obvious vandalism. But the other part I will have to put on my list. At the very least we can put a {{Fact}} tag on it and get more individuals on it. WDavis1911 06:20, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation

I didn't know how to pronounce it and found the answer at dictionary.com. I won't add it because I know that wikipedia uses technical symbols rather then replacing the whole word with numerous one syllable words. Arthur Curry (talk) 00:39, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Citizen of the world

Diogenes is the first person known to have said, "I am a citizen of the whole world" (cosmopolites). This was a radical claim in a world where a man's identity was intimately tied to his citizenship in a particular city state.

Wikiquote:Socrates#Plutarch says that Socrates had expressed this thought (though perhaps in more words). Diogenes was about 13 years old when Socrates died if we assume that Diogenes was born in 412 BC, so it seems unlikely that Socrates said it first. - furrykef (Talk at me) 21:16, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Question: don't you mean "it seems LIKELY that Socrates said it first, having lived his entire life before Diogenes was 13? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.63.206.249 (talk) 14:21, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Facts of Death

Can we dispense with the concept the Diogenes die by holding his breath? While there is a citation listed there, the Vargus nerve makes it impossible. As such, the citation would seem to be either metaphorical or inaccurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.71.82.82 (talk) 21:40, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually most statements about Diogenes tend to be metaphorical or inaccurate. You are quite right that it is impossible to die by holding your breath, but there is symbolism in the story, which is why it was probably invented in antiquity, it implies that he calmly and peacefully chose to die when he was ready, in a manner that befits a philosopher. Similar stories were said about Zeno of Citium, and Metrocles. Note also that another story about Diogenes' death, that he died from a dog bite, is obviously meant to be ironic. Singinglemon (talk) 19:04, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Deface, debase or adulterate the currency

Web resources use any of these three words to describe the act of Diogenes that precipitated his departure from Sinope. The translation by C. D. Yonge of the biography written by Diogenes Laertius uses the word adulterate. Adulterate and debase are synonymous with respect to coinage but deface is not. Is it possible to clarify this part of the article as deface is not supported by the translation of the Laertius reference available on the web. Perhaps the other source cited in that section: C. T. Seltman, Diogenes of Sinope, Son of the Banker Hikesias, in Transactions of the International Numismatic Congress 1936 (London 1938) contains some quotable statement that would serve.--70.145.7.93 (talk) 10:49, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

The word used by Diogenes Laertius is paracharaxis, which apparently can mean deface, adulterate, or counterfeit. (Note that C. D. Yonge translation of Diogenes Laertius is often very poor, but in this instance he agrees with the Loeb translation in using adulterate: [1])

The coins found at Sinope, however, are ones which have been deliberately defaced. This is what it says in A History Of Cynicism by Donald R. Dudley (pages 54-55) [2]:

During the decade after 350 the credit of Sinope was being seriously

undermined by the circulation of imitations of her currency, emanating notably from the satrap of Cappadocia. What action was taken to meet the situation is readily seen. Of the 55 coins with Aramaic legends 31 (or about 60 per cent.), of the 40 barbarian coins 8 (or 20 per cent.), have been defaced by a large chisel-stamp. This was done to put them out of circulation; and is, Mr. Seltman argues, paracharaxis in the true fourth-century sense. (The word was a rare one, it cannot mean the issue of false coinage, for which there was a different word, and besides no Sinopean coins of base metal are known.) The work must have been that of a high official at the Mint, it exactly coincides with what we are told about Diogenes' father Hicesias. Hicesias, then, was a 'sound money man', he acted in the best interests of the State; why did he suffer imprisonment? Mr. Seltman has two suggestions. After the control of Datames at Sinope from 370 to 362 there was probably a pro-Persian party in the city, which could easily say that the paracharaxis, of the coins of the Cappadocian satrap was an insult which would probably lead to trouble. Furthermore, the paracharaxis was not confined to the imitation currency: of the good Sinopean coins, 2 out of 43 listed of the first issue, 10 out of 130 of the third issue have been so defaced. This was probably due to carelessness on the part of under officials, but it could easily be turned into a serious accusation against the Master of the Mint. So for one or both of these reasons Hicesias was imprisoned, and his son Diogenes, who was an assistant at the

Mint, was driven into exile.

Singinglemon (talk) 17:02, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

The Glamours of a Low Population World

For all intents and purposes, this gentlemen sounds like merely a mad homeless man by contemporary standards. There are many highly educated, philosophically gifted, mad homeless folk living all around the world; however then the population of the world was so microscopic by comparison glory, fame and notoriety was more easily reached. Perhaps I am being stoic, or at best a cynic in this instance, which I'm sure the gent would be proud of, but I feel that this should be addressed in some way in the article. 211.30.71.59 06:17, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

This is certainly an accurate assessment, from a modern perspective, and is a point made by numerous of our contemporaries. e.g. Goulet-Caze and especially Navia. funkendub 21:47, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Whilst Navia does refer to such charges, I think the usually reliable Funkendub misrepresents Navia's argument here. In Diogenes lifetime, there were many who dismissed him as "merely a mad homeless man" by their own then-contemporary standards. What exactly is it in the prevalent standards of modern industrialised society that is actually distinct from classical Attic standards with regards to things such as defecating on the stage during a speech at the Olympics, public masturbation, voluntary poverty, shaving half of your head etc? Diogenes would still be a shocker today. The only real differences in standards relate to minor taboos such as not eating in the marketplace.

User:211.30.71.59 states that Diogenes significance is dependent on the lower levels of population but this is unfair. Whilst the notability of his antics may be dismissed in this way, you have to take into account the historical significance of Diogenes: he mocked Alexander and lived; he intellectually humiliated the great Plato on many occasions (e.g. the "featherless biped with broad flat nails" debacle); he was the only pupil ever accepted by Antisthenes (arguably the true heir of Socrates); he taught cynicism to Crates who taught it to Zeno who fashioned it into the school of Stoicism, one of the most enduring branches of Greek philosophy.

Furthermore, Diogenes was more than just "philosophically gifted". He wrote over ten books, a volume of letters and seven tragedies. None are extant but, still, its a lot more than the mad woman who lives behind the recycling bins in Piccadily and throws pigeons at passing cars. Silverwood (talk) 13:19, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Removed paragraph

I removed the following paragraph added on 5 February 2009:

It seems his life was not always degrading to modern standards. It is reputed that the courtesan Phryne, the most beautiful courtesan of the era who charged according to her emotional inclination towards the customer, gave herself to Diogenes free of charge, because she admired his mind.

It was somewhat dubious information copied over from the page on Phryne (see Talk:Phryne) Tertullian (Apology 46) does say, in passing, that "The harlot Phryne gratified the lust of Diogenes," (but does not say why). Athenaeus (xiii. 588), though, makes a similar claim about Lais gratifying Diogenes (although the focus of the anecdote is Aristippus not Diogenes.) Elsewhere (Laërtius, vi. 61, 62, 66) we find Diogenes making anti-hetaera statements. Singinglemon (talk) 18:49, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Manes

"If Manes can live without Diogenes, why not Diogenes without Manes?" Who is Manes?

Manes is the servant. Nareek 22:29, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Manes was Diogenes' servant he brought along to Athens from Sinope. Servants were common during those times. — Sshadow 10:31, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

"Servant" would be a misnomer in this case, as Manes was Diogenes' slave. Slaves were often treated as members of the family but they nonetheless lacked citizenship and certainly were not paid for their labors. funkendub 21:41, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I maybe simplistic or missing the point but it seems ironic that Diogenes should have had a slave (Manes). Was this cultural or was it only property that Diogenes eschewed?Philt54 (talk) 10:27, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

He wasn't a Cynic philosopher when he lived in Sinope, he was just a banker's son. It was when he was exiled that he went to Athens with a slave, who then abandoned him. And it was then in Athens that Diogenes first began practising Cynic aceticism. So there's no actual contradiction here. But perhaps the Manes anecdote could be placed a little earlier in the article so that is doesn't sound like he's a fully-practising Cynic at this point. Singinglemon (talk) 00:54, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

How to avoid temptation to lust of the flesh?

Resolved

I partially undid the edit by User:SebastianHelm who replaced "He once masturbated in the Agora..." with "Once, when asked how to 'avoid temptation to lust of the flesh' he began publicly to masturbate...". Although it's probably true that none of the ancient sources mention the Agora, I'm also not sure that they state that anyone asked him how to avoid lust. I have a lot of sentiment for the h2g2, but I doubt it counts as a reliable source. The story of Diogenes masturbating is mentioned in several ancient sources such as Diogenes Laertius, Dio Chrysostom, Athenaeus, Augustine, etc. The punch-line "if only I could soothe my hunger by rubbing my belly," is, of course, the point of the story: its interpretation should be fairly obvious, but if it's not, then maybe a line from a scholarly source explaining it could be added. Singinglemon (talk) 16:29, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

You seem to know more about this than I do, so I won't question your reinsertion of the "rebuke" part. But why did you remove the reference to the BBC article? — Sebastian 18:06, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I have been waiting patiently for a reply, but none has come forward, so I took a second look at this. I now realize that not only did this post provide no reason for the removal of the BBC reference, but it also provided no reason for the insertion of "rebuked". The second half of the post (from "The story of Diogenes masturbating is mentioned in several ancient sources ...") is only a red herring with no bearing whatsoever on this discussion, since neither the mention of "masturbation" nor the punch line have been changed. I will therefore undo both these two 2 changes. — Sebastian 23:52, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

My apologies for the lateness of my replying. Too much chaos going on at my end at the moment. I did explain, somewhat cryptically, what was wrong with the BBC reference. It comes from the h2g2 encyclopedia. It is not a reliable source (see WP:RS). It is just an enclopedia which anyone can edit, which does not have an adequate peer-review process. The h2g2 article on Cynicism is actually fairly good, but it's just an essay which someone submitted one day, and it has all the status of a blog in terms of reliable sources. My sole issue was with this line: "Once, when asked how to 'avoid temptation to lust of the flesh' he began publicly to masturbate..." which appears in no ancient source (nor, as far as I know, in any modern textbook). I have no problem with the removal of the rebuke part, it got restored when I undid an edit, you are right to delete it. I shall delete the h2g2 reference again, (but I'll leave everything else). Thanks for seeking to make this more accurate. Bits of this article are rather sloppily written. Singinglemon (talk) 16:21, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Makes sense, thanks! I hadn't been aware that we were both referring to the same link, just under different names. — Sebastian 18:06, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Hicesias/Tresius

The article tells us that Diogenes' father was Hicesias, but its source (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/diogeneslaertius-book6-cynics.html#Diogenes) says that it's in fact Tresius. It doesn't even mention any "Hicesias" as far as I can see. 90.149.225.198 (talk) 21:07, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Burial urn

I have reverted the use of the term "burial urn" back to the original "tub" throughout the article. Tub is the accepted translation of the Greek word pithos and is defined as a large earthenware barrel (see Navia's Diogenes the Cynic, pg 37 for example). Most texts on Diogenes use the term "tub". I have not seen any evidence to suggest the tub was in fact a burial urn but either way the more prevalent and popular term should be used to avoid confusion. People who don't know anything else about Diogenes know him as "the guy who lived in the tub in the marketplace", why make it alienating for them?Silverwood (talk) 09:12, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Good! Very good move!--P Todd (talk) 03:09, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Holes in a Tub

Manly Palmer Hall in his Secret Teachings of All Ages, p.21, says:

"Diogenes of Sinopis is remembered chiefly for the tub in the Metroum which for many years searved him as a home. The people of Athens loved the beggar-philosopher, and when a youth in jest bored holes in the tub, the city presented Diogenes with a new one and punished the youth. Diogenes believed that nothing in life can be rightly accomplished without exercitation [sic]. He maintained that everything in the world belongs to the wise, a declaration which he proved by the following logic: 'All things belong to the gods; the gods are friends to wise persons; all things are common amongst friends; therefore all things belong to the wise."

Is Hall considered a credible source for Wikipedia? He does not site his own sources in his work.--P Todd (talk) 05:05, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Diogenes Laertius' Lives of the Eminent Philosophers is the best source. μηδείς (talk) 18:56, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

The "bored holes in the tub" bit sounds like it is based on the old idea you find in older books and pictures that Diogenes' tub was a wooden barrel, whereas in fact it was an earthenware tub. Anyway, you are right to point in the direction of Diogenes Laertius, because at section 43, we find:

Still he was loved by the Athenians. At all events, when a youngster broke up his tub, they gave the boy a flogging and presented Diogenes with another.

And at section 72, we find

He maintained that all things are the property of the wise, and employed such arguments as those cited above. All things belong to the gods. The gods are friends to the wise, and friends share all property in common; therefore all things are the property of the wise.

Singinglemon (talk) 20:12, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Vow/Virtue

The original line in the introduction is "He became a disciple of Antisthenes, and made a virtue of extreme poverty, famously begging for a living and sleeping in a tub in the marketplace." This was changed to "made a vow of extreme poverty" but I have reverted it to the original. "Vow" sounds like a declared oath or public committment such as a Franciscan monk's vow of poverty but I can't think of anything in the main sources like this (there may be something in the Arabic sources I don't know). Primary sources suggest Diogenes' accomodation fell through when he arrived in Athens so he resigned himself to sleeping rough, making a deliberate lifestyle out of it through his ideological embodiment of Herculean principles. He later rejected formal housing and embraced begging. Thus he "made a virtue" in the defined sense of the phrase by celebrating something he couldn't avoid doingSilverwood (talk) 09:05, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

"...ever accepted by Antisthenes, whom he saw..."

Slightly confused by this sentence: "He intellectually humiliated Plato and was the only pupil ever accepted by Antisthenes, whom he saw as the true heir of Socrates," is "he" referring to Diogenes, or Antisthenes? Did Antisthenes see Diogenes as the "true heir" of Socrates, or vice versa? I suppose it's the latter, given the "he," but I was hoping someone with some background on the relationship between the two could shed some light anyway (mostly to satiate my own curiosity). Thanks! --70.171.192.97 (talk) 07:22, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Good point. I will try to clear it up in the intro. Diogense saw Antisthenes as the only true heir to Socrates. He thought Plato was a phoney who had ditched Socrates' trial complaining of a tummy ache, sat back and watched his friend get murdered by the state and then carried on as if the state were benign when he should really have become an anarchist. Silverwood (talk) 17:05, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Much obliged! --70.171.192.97 (talk) 23:00, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

I would moreover claim that the phrasing, "Diogenes intellectually humiliated Plato," is ambiguous. Intellectual humiliation could lead to a variety of conclusions; if the intellectual humiliation is a product of Diogenes' refusal to accept Plato as a legitimate heir to Socrates' ideas, then it should be made clear. I doubt Plato would be humiliated by the opinion, though. It would seem more clear to simply write that Diogenes did not regard Plato as heir; stating he was humiliated seems like speculation and embellishment. --216.252.77.250 (talk) 06:42, 28 February 2011 (UTC)Dane

Thanks for your contribution. Just to clarify: the opening paragraph of a wikipedia article summarises the contents of the article in a few paragraphs and explain why the subject is important and interesting. They do not have references or long explanations. All of the statements should refer to more detailed information available in the main body of the article. In this case, you can read in the article how Diogenes famously humiliated Plato at the Gymnasium in front of his students. When Plato psuedo-scientifically defined man as a "featherless biped", Diogenes produced a chicken that he plucked and introduced as a man. Plato was made to look rather silly and had to change his definition to "a featherless biped with broad, flat nails". This is significant because it suggests that Diogenes was at least the intellectual equal of Plato, rather than just some mad old tramp in a barrel. History does not record whether Plato cared that Diogenes thought him a dubious heir. I doubt it as he was a wrestler and probably rather thick-skinned.Silverwood (talk) 14:12, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

tone

• -this article is filled with flowery language not appropriate for an encyclopedia. have added Quark1005 (talk) 23:09, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
• I am referring to sentences like: "After being exiled from his native city for defacing the fiscal currency, he moved to Athens to deface the cultural currency." "Detractors have said he was an obnoxious beggar and an offensive grouch." "He intellectually embarrassed Plato," "His life was a relentless campaign to debunk the social values" "At some point (and the details are murky) " "iogenes was a self-appointed public scold whose mission was to demonstrate to the ancient Greeks that civilization is regressive." Quark1005 (talk) 19:44, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Not sure the "inappropriate tone" tag is especially justified here. Most of the offending lines are from the opening summary anyway, where colloquialisms etc are more permissable. Quark1005 is right that much of the phrasing in the article is too flowery, though. I will look at revising the lines mentioned and removing the tag.Silverwood (talk) 10:55, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

If there is no pleasure in life, there should be at least some sense of it.

Translated it literally from Russian, didn't find it in english wikiquotes. By the way should some of his most notable quotes be cited in this article? Jarash (talk) 16:45, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Diet of Onions

This article fails to mention his diet of onions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.14.228.170 (talk) 11:52, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Digenes' tub?

Where did he get that tub he was living in? Was it a custom-made tub or was is used as a storage vessel for something? The article says it was owned by a temple, was it used for any religious rites?

I didn't find anything that would look like his tub in the pictures but my guess it was a giant pithos but then again was his tub of ceramic? In that case how could he roll it back and forth without any damage to it? This guy here hid himself in a bronze winejar, so maybe he had a bronze tub after all? Any suggestion about the nature of that tub? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.46.177.157 (talk) 08:06, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

I added some information about this. InverseHypercube (talk) 21:45, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Depictions in Literature

The article claims that Buster Keaton played Diogenes in A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum. Basic research says that Keaton played a fictional character named Erronius. Diogenes does not appear in the musical or the film. I would delete the short paragraph making this claim, but it has a citation. Can someone check this out? — Preceding unsigned comment added by IJVin (talk • contribs) 04:59, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Shouldn't this be the main topic at Diogenes

and moved accordingly? Many of the others post-date or relate to this. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 01:25, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Many writings?

According to note (1), he didn't leave anything written because he despised writing, but in the text is said that "none of his many writings survived". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.80.93.104 (talk) 04:09, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Alexander quip

The famous anecdote of Diogenes replying to Alexander hardly warrants so bold an assertion in the introductory lines as "Diogenes was the only man to publicly mock Alexander the Great and live." Though a highly amusing tale, there is some doubt as to whether the incident ever actually occurred, and there is plenty of ancient testimony that despite their general reverence for him that Alexander was often mocked by his generals and others for various stunts and practices throughout his career. ~ Kalki (talk) 20:54, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

• I think it's worth including your point about doubt in the body of the article if you have relevant sources but I think it should stand in the introduction that they did meet as this is central to the Diogenes story and appropriate according to the introduction guidelines. There is also a lot more evidence that they did meet than that they did not meet. People are not just relying on Diogenes Laertius' word on the meetings. You can find accounts in Plutarch, Dio Chrysostom and Lucian as well. There are also Arabic sources such as Muhtasar Siwan al-Hikma. He tells a story about Alexander finding Diogenes asleep so he kicks him to wake him up, to which Diogenes replies "Conquering cities may not be held against kings, but kicking like an ass should be." I personally agree with Luis Navia who wrote "the number of reports and their consistency seem to point to some element of historicity". Diogenes was a bit of a tourist attraction in Corinth at the time, it's not that unlikely that Alexander would have visited him and I've yet to be convinced that the doubts are any stronger than the usual doubts concerning every Diogenes story.

  As for the bit about him being the only man to publically mock Alexander, that does probably need re-writing, you're right. Although Alexander became for more violent in later life it is of course plausible that he let some close generals get away with some ribbing too. It may still be true to say Diogenes was the only one who did it in public and certainly the only one of such lowly status, but there is no way of proving that, you are correct. Silverwood (talk) 15:00, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Since we now have a whole article on the meeting of Diogenes and Alexander (which isn't between Diogenes and Alexander in every version), where I'm going to add a note on contested historicity in a little while, you'll probably want to tidy up the hyperlinking in the "In Corinth" section so that it is less of a surprise link. Uncle G (talk) 11:33, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

• Good point! I've flagged it up with nice big solid link. Singinglemon (talk) 17:32, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I have just deleted a portion I believe to be apocryphal. I do not see *Diogenes* saying that he'd rather be Diogenes in any of the cited sources. http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Moralia/De_exilio*.html http://classics.mit.edu/Plutarch/alexandr.html https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Lives_of_the_Eminent_Philosophers/Book_VI#Diogenes Gqfreeman (talk) 18:45, 15 July 2015 (UTC) Also of minor note: the snippet I excised is *not* in the quotation as it appears in the main Diogenes_and_Alexander article Gqfreeman (talk) 19:00, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Another anecdote

In Persian "Geseh Shenidam ke Sheitk ba Cheragh raft va goft: Az Deev va Dad Maloolam va Ensanam Arezoost! Meanings: I heard the story of the old man wondering with a lamp and saying: I am tired of monsters and beasts and wish for a human! I told that to my friends in school and one dude said (in sarcasm) "Nice guy!") indicating that the dude was somewhat suffering from an ego problem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.96.215.155 (talk) 02:50, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Verbatim Text Needs Quotation Marks and Citation if from External Source

There is a good deal of text that appears verbatim in Robert D. Morritt's Echoes from the Greek Bronze Age: An Anthology of Greek Thought in the Classical Age.

For example (although other text is also both here and in the book, see pp 93-04): "He is alleged variously to have held his breath; to have become ill from eating raw octopus;[33] or to have suffered an infected dog bite.[34] When asked how he wished to be buried, he left instructions to be thrown outside the city wall so wild animals could feast on his body. When asked if he minded this, he said, "Not at all, as long as you provide me with a stick to chase the creatures away!" When asked how he could use the stick since he would lack awareness, he replied "If I lack awareness, then why should I care what happens to me when I am dead?"[35] At the end, Diogenes made fun of people's excessive concern with the "proper" treatment of the dead. The Corinthians erected to his memory a pillar on which rested a dog of Parian marble.[36]" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.195.152.28 (talk) 03:31, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Not an Acceptable Source

I move to remove this blog as a source, and to rewrite all portions of the article that cite it. https://web.archive.org/web/20151017130617/http://www.beyond-the-pale.co.uk/diogenes.htm He has no qualifications, uses no sources, and it seems all the people he writes on become mouthpieces for his own ideas. Thanks! Tjohnso (talk) 14:53, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

If there are no objections, I want to begin removing references to this entertaining, but entirely inappropriate blog. I won't begin anytime soon to give users a chance to give input. Tjohnso (talk) 23:32, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Featherless biped

On this page Plato's definition is termed "tongue in cheek", and there is a citation that claims it was a joke, but every other source I can find that refers to this incident seems to treat Plato's definition as being sincere. It would certainly be notable if Plato was joking, as it would be Diogenes who looks stupid in that case.

I don't think Plato was joking, but it also seems likely to me that the story is mythical, considering the only apparent source is Diogenes Laërtius who was writing 500 years after it happened, and there is no other record of Plato defining man as a "featherless biped". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7F:631:4B00:8DFA:C3AC:1A4D:B087 (talk) 21:16, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Alexander The Great and Diogenes.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:53, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Masturbating

Did Diogenes spend a lot of his time masturbating publicly? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.224.201.154 (talk) 05:14, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Alexander The Great and Diogenes.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:15, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Cloud Cuckoo Land

Diogenes features extensively in the 2021 book by pulitzer-winning author Anthony Doerr. The book revolves around a (now lost but referenced) tale attributed to Antonius Diogenes with a different title 84.87.166.246 (talk) 12:56, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Irrelevant, wrong Diogenes :) 84.87.166.246 (talk) 12:59, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Date of birth

From Diogenes statue in Sinop ([3]) we can decrypt: "Lived in Sinop between 413-404 B.C. and died 324 B.C." I think that is quite reliable source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Herbowicz (talk • contribs) 06:10, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

How it comes that he died before his birth??? Born in 413 or 404 BC and died in 323 BC,, Funny!!!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Uzairyar (talk • contribs) 05:14, 24 May 2022 (UTC)