Talk:Dimche Sarvanov

Same problem, different article

@Jingiby:, can you provide a source that says Dimche Sarvanov was a Bulgarian? Not a source about VMRO in general, etc. It's pretty simple: unless a reliable source says "Sarvanov was Bulgarian", we cannot say it here. None of the quotes you've provided from those sources state this. --Local hero ^talk 20:51, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi, Local hero. As you know until the turn of the 20th century the membership in the IMRO was formally restricted only for Bulgarians. Its first name was "Bulgarian Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Committees". IMRO was active not only in Macedonia but also in Thrace (the Vilayet of Adrianople). Since its early name emphasized the Bulgarian nature of the organization by linking the inhabitants of Thrace and Macedonia to Bulgaria, these facts are still difficult to be explained from the Macedonian historiography. They suggest that IMRO revolutionaries in the Ottoman period did not differentiate between ‘Macedonian’ and ‘Bulgarian’. Moreover, as their own writings attest, they often saw themselves and their compatriots as ‘Bulgarians’. All of them wrote in standard Bulgarian language. For more see: Brunnbauer, Ulf (2004) Historiography, Myths and the Nation in the Republic of Macedonia. In: Brunnbauer, Ulf, (ed.) (Re)Writing History. Historiography in Southeast Europe after Socialism. Studies on South East Europe, vol. 4. LIT, Münster, pp. 165-200. Jingiby (talk) 20:52, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

... so, you don't have a source that explicitly states that Sarvanov was Bulgarian? --Local hero ^talk 03:51, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

So, I have provided two sources of that type. One by Macedonian and another by Bulgarian author. Also two sources in English that explicitly confirm the fact none of the IMRO revolutionaries during Ottoman times had a national identity different from Bulgarian one. Jingiby (talk) 04:50, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Then how do you explain Pitu Guli? I do not believe it to be aligned with policy to label this individual a Bulgarian in the lead sentence when we don't have a source that specifically states this. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. --Local hero ^talk 18:58, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Did you read the article about Guli? There are sourced sentences as follows: Nevertheless, Pitu Guli and his family were Bulgarophiles.[3][4] Except for Exarchist Vlachs,[5] most members of other ethnicities dismissed the IMRO as pro-Bulgarian.[6][7] Jingiby (talk) 20:36, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

So you're saying IMRO members were either Bulgarian or Bulgarophiles, not just Bulgarians. Then how can we definitively say Sarvanov was a Bulgarian and not just a Bulgarophile? --Local hero ^talk 20:40, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, but probably you are kidding. Jingiby (talk) 04:33, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Nope and frankly it's alarming that you think having descriptions of a group as being pro-Bulgarian means its members are all Bulgarians ethnically. We don't draw our own conclusions, we need explicit sources. Anyway, add in the quote from the Serbian source (the one from your edit summary) to the article please. --Local hero ^talk 14:30, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

How can he be Macedonian when the Macedonian ethnicity developed during the 20th century? --James Richards (talk) 18:08, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Irrelevant question, that was not under consideration here. --Local hero ^talk 19:24, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

How is it irrelevant? --James Richards (talk) 22:21, 2 September 2020 (UTC)