Talk:Dilazak

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Dilazak1 10:19, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Archaic use of term "Afghan" to mean "Pashtun"

Dilazak1 (and any allied parties): the use of "Afghan" to mean "Pashtun" is archaic and confusing. To refer to Karlanris as an "Afghan tribe" vice "Pashtun tribe" makes the issue unclear; "Afghan tribe" could mean they are Baluch, Aimaq, or one of dozens of other "tribal" grounds living in the modern Islamic Republic of Afghanistan. Further, to a modern reader the term "Afghan tribe" would not indicate that they live in Pakistan as well. "Pashtun tribe" covers both Afghanistan and Pakistan, and distinguishes them from other non-Pashtun tribal groups.

I understand that you have some historical/cultural affinity for the word "Afghan", but your adherence to it simply causes confusion in the modern era. MatthewVanitas (talk) 13:48, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I have given my reasons for removing India from the introductory sentence in the article. User Dilazak needs to know that there may be descendants of Dilazaks in India but they are not resident as a tribal group nor are they living as Pashtun/Afghan community with Pashtunwali, Pashto language and culture. Furthermore their physionomy is no different than their fellow Indians thus revealing their inter-breeding with other Hindustani Muslims and perhaps Hindu converts to Islam. This is true for majority of other claimants to Yusufzais, Afridis and other tribes of Afghanistan and Pakistan. Let me further inform you that the Pakhtunkhwa province of Pakistan (formerly NWFP) is the East Afghanistan province and was only incorporated into India in early 20th century and so is still claimed by Afghanistan as its land so north western Pakistan is Pashtun homeland as is indicated in the name of Pakistan: P (Punjab) A (Afghanis) K (Kashmir) I (diacritical mark Zer) S (Sind) Tan (from Balochistan). Moarrikh (talk) 21:26, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

This is etting silly. The edit war between Moarrikh and Dilazak1 is not good for the article. Dilazak1, who is certainly an Indian who insists on including India as a primary residence for Dilazaks in India is absurd. He seems to go on and on re the history quite a lot but is unwilling to accept alternative explanations and anythingg that goes against his version/interpretation of the same history and current situation on the ground. Moarrikh seems to be irritated by this and has kept on reverts of his own. But some of his criticisms are valid as he has written on the talk page his issues whereas Dilazak1 just seems to ignore fair questions raised. I would like Wikipedia to ensure that the article is structured along fair and logical lines and that to invite other expert editors of Pashtun people/tribes to intervene and re-write the article in line with Wikipedia policy and practice. As a Afghan myself I will also liaise with my family members and Afghan academics on both side of the Durand Line to ascertain the correct history of the Dilazaks and make my own contributions as and when necessary. I also have links to Peshawar University's relevant professors who will shed light on this for me hopefully. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Montement (talk • contribs) 10:26, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Dear Indian Dilazaki

Dear Indian Dilazaki it is very absurd of you to call me a racist. If I am a racist then you have proved me right in that there can only be Indians of Dilazak descent but it is impossible to be Indian Dilazak - the term is both contradictory and paradoxical. My reason for not including India in the opening sentence of the article is simple in that India is not Pakistan or Afghanistan i.e. it is not a primary residence of the Dilazaki tribe. India can be mentioned later in the article as a place where some of the tribe travelled to a few centuries earlier thus there may still be some who can identify themselves as being descendants of the early settlers - others have assimilated over a long and protracted period of intermarriage. Your concept of Indian Dilazaki status in India itself betrays your naivete and immaturity. You're not the only one who follows this twisted logic. There seems to be a long list of Indian people who call themselves Mughal, Turk, Sayyad and Yusufzai/Afridi etc.who are at best descendants but nothing more. The Pashtuns do not call themselves Huns, Hepthalites or Jewish etc. despite the fact their history ascribes these origins to them. So get real and stay as a Hindustani and do not provoke BJP who only want you to call yourselves as sons of the Indian soil.

Do visit Dilazak talk page and read my justification for omitting India from the introduction. Don't lie it seems very peurile thing to do whilst calling me immature. Moarrikh (talk) 21:59, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Dear Moarrikh

I would like to answer you under two headings: First why I do not consider your edits justified. Second why I call this attitude of your as racist attitude. But before that all, I want to assure you that it is not at all and has never been an issue of my ego that someone else should not edit whatever cock and bull story I have written. I always look for valid reasons and logic behind an action. I can be easily convinced to change my opinion altogether, only if I am convinced through logic and reason. With this, I come to the first point and that is why India and descendants etc should be there or not?

Original country of Afghans is considered/believed to be present day Afghanistan (Not Pakistan). How Afghans appeared in that land is almost a myth and there are number of theories to that effect. However, in the known history, Afghans are seen in Sub-Continent first in the shape of the Dilazak during 750-850 CE. Then during the invasions of Mehmood Ghaznavi and others, large number of Afghans had been coming into Indian Sub-Continent. Some of them went back and some of them settled down in new territories. This continued till 16th Century, when a large influx of Afghans came into Peshawar valley in the shape of Yousafzae, Mohmands, Tar Khelis and Utmanzae etc. In the same century, Afghans spread further into India with the Mughal King Babur and since those times, Afghans’ have been living in Indian Subcontinent of those days including India of today.

If we say ‘descendent’, for example, then all Afghans living in India, Pakistan and even in Afghanistan are certainly descendants of Jews or Armenianans etc (Depends which theory you agree to). Afghans in India including the Dilazak are as old as anyone else is except aboriginal Indians. And mind you, aboriginal Indians are also believed to be in southern India. North Indians are believed to be mix breed of foreign origins. If you want to study further, do study ‘Aryan Theory’ in detail (For and against both). Now coming back to my original point, there are supposed to be four and (To some) three generations of humans in one century. A people with more than 20+ generations living in a land are in my opinion people of that land and if we go according to your theory, then not only 'the Dilazak' but every other Afghan tribe does not belong to either India or Pakistan even Afghanistan as well. I hope I have made my point somewhat clearer.

Now coming to second issue which deals with your racist attitude. I have my following reasons :-

You first edit where you removed word India was on 5 Aug 12. I undid it but again you did the same thing. This process continued when I asked you on 8 Sep 12 to give some reasons for removing this word. You did not reply but did remove the word ‘India’ again till I requested you on 18 Sep 12 to explain the edits. You did not reply but kept editing the same word time and again converting it into an 'edit war'. On receiving no reply, I gave my observations on 3 Oct 12, not for you but for 'Wiki Editors' to note the point. You still kept on editing it till 12 Nov 12 when you replied with remarks which are apparently derogatory as you used word ‘idiotic’. I advised you not give such remarks next day.

On 22 Nov 12, you wrote, ‘Mr. Toor Dilazak’ which means 'Black (Toor - A Pashto Language Word) Dilazak' implicating the Dilazak of India as Black Dilazak (Though I am not an Indian). Again it speaks of your unjustified racial approach. Your edit was reverted two days later on 24 Nov 12 by Mr. MatthewVanitas, a wiki editor as well.

On top of all in your recent edit you went to the extents. Your use of word Indian Dilazaki is an insult, not to me but to yourself (More so if , by any chance, you are an Afghan yourself). Do you know which area of Pakistan has maximum concentration of the Dilazak? Its Hazara, where in Haripur alone, there are more than twenty large villages/towns of the Dilazak. In Peshawar, there is only one village and they too are all Pashto speakers. On the other side, 30% population of Peshawar itself is non-Pakhtoon but speaks Pashto. Pashto (Or any language) is not the criteria for any body to become a Pashtoon or non-Pashtoon. Its 'Genetics', which decides who is who?

Just before closing my this long thesis, For you specially, I am a fair colour Afghan Dilazak and live nearby Peshawar in KPK. Based on your previous behaviour, am I wrong saying it an immature attitude? And lastly, I have written this entire thesis to make you understand something. If I was successful then certainly you would not do the same edit again. However, you can always contribute with reason and logic anywhere in the article. I would really appreciate that. And if I have failed in making you understand anything, please keep doing ,whatever, you were doing earlier. I will keep reverting it. But this time, I will also ask ‘Wiki Administrators’ to block your account and any IP/IP range from where you log in to protect the wiki standards. Don't you think, I deserve that?

I hope I have not offended you.

Regards

Mr Dilajacki

Mr Dilajacki, I do not consider you a Pakistan based Pashtun or otherwise. I am born here and as an academic and historian of Pashtuns, particularly of Hazara-based tribes (including Hindko speaking comunities)I have a lot of knowledge both contemporary situations in the two countries. Whereas you are, regardless of what you say, are an Indian, as evidenced by your ignorance of the geography of administrative boundries of Pakhtunkhwa and Pakistan - you've made so many mistakes in 'your' article that it defies logic: mixing Punjabi zillahs with Pakhtunkhwa zillahs, not knowing where certain towns and people live or are based. You use Sher Khan Panni's first edition Tarikh e Hazara without critical perspective whereas Dr Sher Khan himself apologised for his mistakes and wrote a second edition to placate his critics with some errors remaining. His reliance on a Sikh's journal/memoirs is unfortunate. Dilazak is not tribe in Pakhtunkhwa or Afghanistan but urban community mainly in Peshawar. Furthermore, they are a Hindko speaking people, who may speak the lingua france of Peshawar ouside their home but domestically they are Kharays. In Hazara they are totally Hindko speaking and not Pashto speaking because the outside language is definately HINDKO too. The only people who speak Pashto in Haripur/Southern Hazara are the Mashwanis, who in reality are Syeds. The only people who speak Pashto as a first language, and perhaps Hindko as second language, are the tribes of upper Mansehra, Upper Tanawal, Toor Ghar, Battagram etc. I visit these areas as well as other parts of Pakhtunkhwa regularly. Last but a major issue is that you insist on putting India as a primary residence of the Dilazaks which is utterly absurd and a primie facie case of your Indian roots. You seem to know too much of Indian geography and not of Pakistan. There are descendants of major Pashtun tribes of Yusufzai, Afridis, Tanaolies in greater numbers in India but none of their articles list India as their primary residence for the tribes in the introductory sentences. I did say to you that I have no objection to this being mentioned later in the article as it is briefly mentioned for the tribes referred to above. Also I consider you racist when you refuse Bangladesh, Malaysia etc. as being places where descendants are also living. My thesis is that descendants living away from the major tribe soon get mixed up with surrounding people and DNA, culture and language changes make people a different group ethnically as well racially. Syeds of Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and Bangladesh are not Arabs after hundreds of years even if we accept they are were originally from the Prophet's family. As you yourself said the origins of the Afghans is no longer their identity due to centuries of admixture with others in their surroundings. Indian 'Dilazaks' likewise are not Dilazaks nor Pashtuns anymore. At best Dilazak is only one of their ancestory among other Hindu and Muslims paternal/maternal descent. I hope this clrifies my thesis. My constant reverts of your reverts to my edits were both annying and offensive. You refused to engage in a dialogue to arrive at a consensus. In all of Wikipedia articles on Pashtun/Afghan tribes in all these years not a single article has been written by an Afghni/Pakistani Pakhtun writer but it was an Indian pupotedly of Dilazak origin who took it upon himself to do this. What does this tell you?

I maintain that you are an Indian and not a Pakistani as exemplified by your refusal to accept Pakhtunkhwa as an Afghan territory, thus betraying your hatred of Pakistan - typical Indian Muslim situation despite claiming it as homeland. My position is clear Pakhtunkhwa is Eastern Afghanistan whether you like it or not whereas you are an Indian, maybe of Dilazak ancestory but not a Pashtun. Period. Moarrikh

The posts below are copies of my contributions to Dilazak1 reproduced here for all to read and appreciate my points when objecting to Dilazak1's writes/rewrite/reverts to my editing out of India from the introductory sentence to the article. As Dilazak1 initiated the article and sees his Indian version of the article as true then I am requesting Pashtuns and other fair-minded people to get involved and contribute to the debate. Wikipedia has had Pashtun articles and debates for many years but no articles have been written about them - only Mr Diljak comes in with an article on a people whose Afghan credentials have been challenged by historians in the past and present and of course contemporary Pashtuns in Pakhtunkhwa and elsewhere. Please and contribute: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Moarrikh (talk • contribs) 17:13, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Reply

I am referring the matter to 'Wiki Administrators' for arbitration Dilazak1 12:52, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

for Moarrikh

I have referred the matter for arbitration at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Statement_by_Dilazak1 Dilazak1 13:46, 22 December 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dilazak1 (talk • contribs)

Appeal to Afghan/Pukhtunkhwas based Pakhtuns to contribute I am getting sick of this Indian Dilaszak1 who refuses to compromise and insists on citing India as a primary residence for Dilazaks along with Afghanistan and Pakistan. Furthermore he also refuses to recognise Pakhtunkhwa as the historical eastern Afghanistan province of Afghanistan. Despite my evidence to the contrary this Bharati/Hindustani, who may be a Karachi Urdu speaking mahajer, deletes/reverts my edits to replace with his unsustantiated claims for Dilazaks contemporary situation in KPK. I appeal to true Pakhtuns to contribute to this talk page as well as the main article in order to put the accurate hitorical and contemporary facts in. I will reproduce my comments on his talk page to here so that you all can see my arguments re my points. I shall also appeal on Pashtun chatrooms, blogs as well as contacting Peshawar University/Hazara University academics to give their opinions in this matter too. I also appeal to Wikipedia administrator to arbitrate in a fair manner in the dispute here between a Pashtun historian and an Indian non-Pashtun. Moarrikh (talk) 16:52, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Reply

• Two questions have been asked:-
1. Is India a primary residence for the Dilazak along with Afghanistan and Pakistan?
2. Is Pakhtunkhwa a historical eastern Afghanistan province of Afghanistan?
• I will answer both questions in near future as I can’t spare time for now due to my personal commitments. However, following suggested aspects or variants of these questions may be discussed by contributors:-
Question 1
a) As it is given above but including all other Afghan tribes as well (Discussing only Dilazak may qualify them but may disqualify others).
b) If India is not a homeland to the Dilazak and other Afghans then is Pakistan?
c) If India and Pakistan both are not homelands to the Dilazak and other Afghans, then is Northern Afghanistan a homeland to any Afghan Tribe?
d) Which is actual homeland of Afghans?

Question 2
a) As it is given above in the statement of the question.
b) Who were actual inhabitants of Eastern Afghanistan and where were their power centers?
c) Is it vice versa that Eastern (Or Northern) Afghanistan was actually a part of present day Pakistan?
Meanwhile, I would request worthy contributors to sight their reference with every point and reference should be an established research work or likewise but not articles of present day websites and blogs and gazetteers. If discussion creates heated debates or gets too lengthy, I suggest that new page may be created.
Hearsay or chitchat will not be responded.
One last request to contributors, one of my friends who is actually an accountant in Leeds Metropolitan University and claims himself as linguist and anthropologist (just for fun) wants to know about his origins as he is a Tanoli (Though he mostly remains quite perturbed about Afghans). I would appreciate if someone could help him else I will have to perform this duty.
Dilazak1 15:48, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

I await the response from Wiki editors re arbitration. I have a friend at Leeds University, a professor of Indian Rajasthan Studies. He is willing to meet with Dilazak1 to clear up any misunderstandings re: primary residence of Indian Pathans and their contemporaneous circumstances. If he can't do it then I am more than willing to do the deed. Moarrikh (talk) 19:46, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Unreliable sources

Many books other than Tareekh I Hazara by SB Panni are almost not known and unreliable. Samanid period was way too old for Dilazaks to have moved to this part. Dilazaks were in present day Nangrahar and their area was more or less present day Mardan not all the way to Abaseen. Please don't put in sources that are so misleading that you can't write correctly on this tribe. The shorter with more concise and better references would be better. Regards Azmarai76 (talk) 18:45, 12 January 2020 (UTC) Category:Articles with dead external links from June 2017 Category:Articles needing additional references from September 2014 Category:Articles with unsourced statements from January 2020

Clean up needed

Alot of misleading info from unreliable sources. Please correct it. Azmarai76 (talk) 18:57, 12 January 2020 (UTC)