Talk:Dilation and evacuation

Incoherent

@VictimOfEntropy "Everyone has access to “affordable abortions” as the majority of pregnancies will be spontaneously aborted naturally, and that’s free." ??? Elizium23 (talk) 02:28, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

@Elizium, your change to the article made it incoherent, yes. I don’t understand what your purpose in coming to the talk page is.

I’ll expand my comments by pointing out how, again, lack of access to affordable abortions is not an issue that contributes to postponement of abortion care, as there are many cheap but dangerous methods of attempting to induce an abortion that essentially everyone has access to (baseball bat, staircase, etc).

And here’s the rest of my comment, since you apparently missed it somehow: “An abortion procedure is a type of healthcare where an abortion is induced, and it is always objectively better for the woman’s physical health and much less likely to kill her than carrying a pregnancy to term.”

It is an objective fact that abortion care is a different thing from simply the word “abortion” (which could be referring to a spontaneous abortion or an induced abortion done with safe or unsafe methods). Abortion care is a prescribed regimen which is, objectively, healthcare, as it guards the physical health of women and gives them the best chance of survival. VictimOfEntropy (talk) 02:45, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

None of that is in the source that's cited. Elizium23 (talk) 02:52, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

I’ll add a source for the fact that abortion is many times less likely to kill a woman than carrying a pregnancy to term is. Thank you for letting me know. VictimOfEntropy (talk) 02:53, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

That's out of scope for this article. Your revert consists of one word. Elizium23 (talk) 02:54, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Well, you were the one who requested sources for the should-be-obvious facts that abortion care is always healthcare that protects a woman’s health and life and different from other forms of abortion (spontaneous, etc.) which, unlike abortion care, are not difficult to access. I guess this is settled, then. And I’ll remove my attempt to cite this PDF: https://www.ansirh.org/sites/default/files/publications/files/mifepristone_safety_4-23-2019.pdf VictimOfEntropy (talk) 03:12, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

I do not know where you got those ideas but you're reading quite a lot into a simple change into the common term used on Wikipedia. Again, the Guttmacher source doesn't use "abortion care" in the way you're using it. Wikipedia doesn't refer to "abortion care" as a matter of course. This article is about one specific procedure, which is a subset of the procedures known as "abortion". Elizium23 (talk) 03:18, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

The section of the article you edited was not referring to the topic of this article, it was referring to the reasons why a woman would need to delay abortion care to the later point in pregnancy where dilation and evacuation would be the appropriate prescribed method. VictimOfEntropy (talk) 03:22, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

That PDF refers to medication abortion, which is not surgical. D&E is a specific type of surgical abortion. Its risk numbers would be completely different and unrelated to medication abortions. Elizium23 (talk) 03:20, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

And the place where I tried to cite the PDF was referring to early abortions, not to the topic of this article, and the majority of early abortions are medication abortions, so the subject of that section of the article is mainly referring to the inability to afford legal medication abortions, the subject of the PDF. VictimOfEntropy (talk) 03:24, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

WP:SYNTH Elizium23 (talk) 03:24, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

This discussion is not relevant to the fact that your edit made the passage incoherent. I’ll stop trying to answer your non-questions, I suppose. The point is that abortion is objectively healthcare, so your NPOV claim was incorrect and the edit was unnecessary, and it caused the passage to cease to make sense as women do not delay seeking abortion because of their inability to afford an unsafe abortion, they delay it because of their inability to afford a safe, legal abortion done or prescribed by a medical professional, which is the type of abortion that the abortion care refers to, as affordable methods of inducing abortion for these women would not be safe and would not be the specific type of abortion referred to by that passage. VictimOfEntropy (talk) 03:30, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Have you read the source? You haven't read the source, have you? Lots of what you are writing contradicts the source, that's already been in the article from before this started. Elizium23 (talk) 03:32, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Have you? The very first paragraph of the source refers to “abortion services”, which, as stated before, is necessary to clarify that this is referring to induced abortions performed or prescribed by professionals, not the spontaneous abortions, etc., that your edit could have caused the passage to be misconstrued as referring to. VictimOfEntropy (talk) 03:38, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

As the article on abortion states, the unmodified word “abortion” is usually used to refer to induced abortions, but not always. It’s necessary to be clear that the passage there is referring to induced abortions done early in pregnancy, not spontaneous abortions, and that it’s also referring to the difficulty of accessing legal abortions, and not referring to illegal induced abortions. VictimOfEntropy (talk) 03:42, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Here’s the relevant information from the source that was being cited for that section of the article:

“Delays push people who want to obtain an abortion until further along in the pregnancy than intended. Multiple factors in a patient’s life, along with state laws requiring a waiting period and additional visits, can make it more difficult for patients to access abortion services earlier in pregnancy.

Fifty-eight percent of abortion patients in a 2004 survey reported that they would have preferred to have obtained their abortion earlier than they did.10

The intersecting aspects of an individual’s identity—such as race, socioeconomic status, gender, age, education, state of residence, and rural or urban location—play a role in how barriers to health care affect the ability to obtain abortion services.

According to an analysis of a national sample of women who obtained abortions in 2014, women with less education, black women and women who had experienced multiple disruptive life events (such as unemployment or separation from a partner) in the past year were more likely than others to have had an abortion at or beyond 13 weeks’ gestation.11

Women who lived at least 50 miles away from an abortion facility were more likely than those who lived less than 25 miles away to seek a second-trimester abortion.11

In addition, only 25% of women who lived in states that require an in-person counseling visit before an abortion procedure obtained an abortion within seven weeks after their last menstrual period, compared with 40% of women who lived in states without a waiting period.11”

As you can see, it is clearly “abortion services” that are referred to, not merely “abortions” as you edited the page to say. If only you’d read the article before making your edits. Shall we change “abortion care” to “abortion services” to match the source, then? VictimOfEntropy (talk) 03:49, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: 2023-24 WikiMed Directed Studies

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 October 2023 and 18 November 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): SDlren (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Tacobellbeanburrito.

— Assignment last updated by Ewingdo 15:21, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Peer Review

Is everything in the article relevant to the article topic? Is there anything that distracted you?

The article is overall adequately complete. It includes relevant information surrounding D&E, its indications, descriptions, risks, alternatives and even the recent laws judicial changes surrounding abortion in the United States. There were no sections of the article that I found distracting or irrelevant to the topic.

Is the article neutral? Are there any claims, or frames, that appear heavily biased toward a particular

The article appears to be neutral. It does a good job of pointing out the standard management of D&E with relevant sources. It also indicates instances where there is a no consensus or insufficient evidence.

Are there viewpoints that are overrepresented, or underrepresented?

The article doesn’t advocate for any certain viewpoints. It does mention the impact of abortion laws on the D&E procedure. However, discussing the varying viewpoints around abortion laws would not be appropriate for this article.

Check the citations. Do the links work? Does the source support the claims in the article?

All of the citations are functional. I was able to connect the information included in the article to the citations listed.

Is each fact supported by an appropriate, reliable reference? Where does the information come from? Are these neutral sources? If biased, is that bias noted?

Each new piece of information is supported by a relevant and appropriate reference. A lot of the information is sourced from American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, a very credible organization. Other information is sourced from reputable journals like Obstetrics and Gynecology. Those journal articles seem to be neutral in viewpoints.

Is any information out of date? Is anything missing that should be added?

A lot of the information originally included in the article was outdated. SDlren did a great a job of adding statistics from 2022-2023. Relevant information surrounding the new abortion laws was also included. A lot of the sources cited were recently published as well.

Tacobellbeanburrito (talk) 15:14, 15 November 2023 (UTC)