Talk:Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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rave

-- Dietrich Bonhoeffer(Bonhöffer) was one of the most important Christian theologians of the 20th Century. He did important work in the field of Christian Ethics and paved the way for some of the liberal Christianity of the type made famous by John Robinson in his works such as the book "Honest to God" - however, this article focuses on the events of his life, which overshadowed his enormous, incomplete and controversial theological and philosophical achievements. I think it is very important that we get a more qualified theologian (for NPOV we may need several, his beliefs are still something of a hot topic!!) to add some more flesh to this. VivaEmilyDavies 23:21, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC) ok

-- Agreed. I added few stuffs I've gathered from tidbits I read because something had to be said about his theology, but it's totally over my head. Please feel free to make corrections. Ilian —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theilian (talk • contribs) 23:16, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Useful source for theology

Bonhoeffer, Dietrich (1906-1945) at Boston Collaborative Encyclopedia of Western Theology [http://people.bu.edu/wwildman/WeirdWildWeb/courses/mwt/dictionary/mwt_themes_780_bonhoeffer.htm Dietrich Bonhoeffer (1906-1945) (Matt McLaughlin, 1999)]

summary of his original theological insights

I do not know much about Bonhoeffer and was hoping that this page would offer a summary of what ideas made him famous and defined him. The article touched on what subjects he approached but not necessarily what he said about those subjects. I understand that he was famous for his actions and circumstances, but I also know that he has many followers of his philosophy. When revised, I suggest that the article be more specific about his original theological statements.

12.150.181.20 18:25, 11 June 2007 (UTC)Chris Holby

Saint?

He is included in a list of saints as being recognised as such by the Anglican Church but not Orthodox nor Roman Catholic. How did this happen? In the wiki article on King Charles I he is listed as the only Anglican post-reformation saint.--78.149.226.93 (talk) 09:40, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Anglicans have different criteria for sainthood. In Catholicism you have to be Catholic and there are miracles involved. In the CoE it’s basically free for all as long as it seems reasonable that the person was a believer. Bonhoeffer had a memorial in Westminster along with other martyrs and missionaries, etc. 2601:249:1880:3AE0:5DFC:F919:6C53:9AFC (talk) 14:32, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Just to let you know...

This article was recently mentioned by the United States Court of Appeals, Ninth Circuit in their decision of LOPEZ-RODRIGUEZ v. HOLDER (No. 06-70868).--Cdogsimmons (talk) 21:35, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

For reference, that's Lopez-Rodriguez, et al v. Holder, 560 F.3d 1098, p. 3780 (9th Cir. 2009). (HTML version) Sondra.kinsey (talk) 20:37, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

The section "Theological Legacy"

It is grammatically written but "Theological Legacy" is too opinionated. The section's intent is to be diminutive of its subject, in this case, Bonhoeffer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.42.185.74 (talk) 18:50, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Did not find any proof of canonization

Hi everyone. I failed to find anything that states that "Dietrich Bonhoeffer" was declared a saint. Should it be in the list of saints? Please help. Jeromeenriquez (talk) 08:57, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

“ Bonhoeffer is commemorated as a theologian and martyr by the United Methodist Church, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and several church members of the Anglican Communion including the Episcopal Church (USA) on the anniversary of his death, 9 April. ” — Dietrich Bonhoeffer#Legacy

@Jeromeenriquez: Are you saying that you did not see this section, or that you were unable to find sources to substantiate it? Sondra.kinsey (talk) 13:59, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

@Sondra.kinsey: The sources to substantiate.Jeromeenriquez (talk) 14:09, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

The section doesn't say Saint, just martyr. Canonization is Catholic, he was Lutheran. The list of Saints has both, and he is also in Calendar of saints (Lutheran). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:27, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

@Jeromeenriquez: I believe I have improved the relevant section with appropriate citations. I am not sure which list you are referring to, but he certainly meets the requirements of Category:Anglican saints. Sondra.kinsey (talk) 20:53, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

@Sondra.kinsey: Thank you very much. But what I have noticed going through the links you have provided and the text quoted in the article is that he is recognized as a 'Martyr' not 'Saint'. There is no proof that he was raised to the Sainthood at all. Even Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, which has marked his commemoration in white, has not mentioned anywhere that Dietrich Bonhoeffer was officially raised to the Sainthood. General Conference of the United Methodist Church has also recognized him only as a Martyr not a Saint. Jeromeenriquez (talk) 07:48, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

@Jeromeenriquez: You're correct. I was under the impression that, for the purposes of Wikipedia, a saint includes "those individuals formally recognized as saints or included in the liturgical calendars of one or more Christian denominations", as the scope of WP:WikiProject Saints says. However, I have been unable to locate an agreement or policy on this usage in the categorization of articles; that statement is merely for the scope of the project.

Anglicanism appears to be hesitant about asserting saints without agreement with the Church universal, although they do maintain a liturgical calendar. Methodism doesn't appear to support recognizing saints as a particular category nor have a liturgical calendar. I am not sure how Lutherans understand or differentiate between the individuals mentioned in their Calendar of saints. Thus I am unsure about how Wikipedia should categorize saints. This discussion probably belongs on Talk:Saints or Category talk:Christian saints. Feel free to move my comments there. Sondra.kinsey (talk) 20:57, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

@Sondra.kinsey: As per WP:WikiProject Saints the article stays in the Saints list.Jeromeenriquez (talk) 07:15, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140403193810/http://store.fortresspress.com/store/product/18463/The-Bonhoeffer-Reader to http://store.fortresspress.com/store/product/18463/The-Bonhoeffer-Reader
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He like the Seattle Seahawks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.76.165.98 (talk) 17:01, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

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Self-publication tag

@JzG: I've removed the self-publication tag fr/ the "Studies in America" section. Bonhoeffer's been dead for 83 years, so there's noting urgent or up-to-the-minute about the self-published material. The subject was reporting a fact about his changing perspective(s), not making a large claim, or anything very self-aggrandizing. Further, the claim dovetails with the rest of the information in the section. I'll also change the wording to reflect the self-reporting nature of the information. Tapered (talk) 02:49, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

The date of decease of the subject is irrelevant. XLibris is a vanity press. Guy (Help!) 10:43, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

"X Libris is a vanity press," doesn't seem to reference any Wikipedia guideline. Let's see some sort of consensus on that, please. The information given is simple reportage of Bonhoeffer's changing worldview, not some claim to fame, virtue, etc. For this sort of information, it's a perfectly acceptable source. Tapered (talk) 08:20, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

See WP:RS. Your assertion that a vanity press is a "perfectly acceptable" source is out of line with established practice. It's a self-published source, and you have provided no evidence that Johnson has any reputation in this field. Guy (Help!) 08:30, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Please see Thomas More's remarks to Cromwell in "A Man for All Seasons." That said, I looked at the Google Books excerpt for the book, and it is, indeed, a piece of trash. A description of it like, "Absolutely no references for anything," would have sufficed. Tapered (talk) 08:47, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

I don't need to justify tagging or removal of a book self-published through a vanity press. The presumption, per policy, is that such books are not acceptable sources, inclusion is by exception if the editor seeking to include them can provide credible evidence of reliability. Guy (Help!) 08:51, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

I'll bear that in mind, Minister Cromwell. A little investigation turned up 2 long gone, unlamented editors as the author and reference provider. Tapered (talk) 09:07, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

What you may not realise is that I have tagged many thousands of self-published sources from Lulu, XLibris, iUniverse and others. There isn't time to go into detail on each one. Tagging is just the first step, flagging for review. Guy (Help!) 09:25, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Spy?

What is the reason for describing him as a spy? His work for the Abwehr or message-running against the Reich? Either way, the use is misleading - it either needs to be given context or removed as being "not what he is known for" - which is the purpose of an opening para. Pincrete (talk) 22:31, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

The paragraph's cited source did not mention espionage; therefore, I removed the mention of "spy", which is OR without a cited source.--Quisqualis (talk) 07:02, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

His spy work is described in Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy, one of the sources for the article. I suspect it's in other sources too, but that's the one I'm familiar with. StephenWade (talk) 13:42, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

That source is only used to cite the sentence "This is the traditional account of Bonhoeffer's death, which over the decades went unchallenged", ie it is not cited to detail what his 'spying' was AFAI can see. Nor is there any exposition of any spying role in the body, therefore use of the word in the opening para fails two criteria - not covered in the body and not in any sense a defining or primary factor of his notability. If he WAS a spy, I, and I'm sure the reader would love to know for whom and in what sense. Pincrete (talk) 18:16, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

https://www.amazon.com/Faithful-Spy-Dietrich-Bonhoeffer-Hitler/dp/1419728385 Xx236 (talk) 11:34, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Monuments

His monuments deserve to be listed.Xx236 (talk) 11:31, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Studies

His time as a student of theology is very short and has mistakes. Hes urely never did a "Staatsexamen" (there is none for theology in Germany). I only can compare now the German dewiki article; accordig to this he got his PhD in 1927 while he was still a student and then finished his theology course in 1928 with the church exam. Kipala (talk) 20:11, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Discussion of Bethel Confession links to "Bethel Foundation"

In the Dietrich Bonhoeffer article, mention of the "Bethel Confession" goes to "Bethel Foundation" which doesn't seem to have anything to do with Bonhoeffer. Can this be corrected?

Texteditor (talk) 22:01, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

While the linked page did appear to reference Bonhoeffer, it didn't reference the Bethel Confession, so I remove the link. Thanks. Bakkster Man (talk) 16:38, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Bonhoeffer's Theory of Stupidity

"Dietrich Bonhoeffer argued that stupid people are more dangerous than evil ones. This is because while we can protest against or fight evil people, against stupid ones we are defenseless — reasons fall on dead ears. Bonhoeffer's famous text, which we slightly edited for this video, serves any free society as a warning of what can happen when certain people gain too much power."

video pitched at school kids:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww47bR86wSc Amagogotya (talk) 10:51, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Father of David Burns, leading thinker in modern CBT

Has anyone made the connection that Bonhoeffer is the father of David Burns, world renowned psychiatrist and author of 'Feeling Good'? He mentions this indirectly but with plenty of detail in his 'Feeling Good' podcast (available on Spotify), episode 071. Wwsander (talk) 19:43, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

This appears to be a misinterpretation. No, my dad was a Lutheran minister in Denver, and then in Phoenix. But I heard about Dietrich Bonhoeffer from him, I think, when I was young.[1] Bakkster Man (talk) 20:00, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Oops, undid my revisions. Very good catch, thank you Wwsander (talk) 20:18, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Christian Ethics

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 10 January 2023 and 4 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Ilovepuppies8 (article contribs).

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