Talk:Dhofari Arabic

Map

  23: Dhofari Arabic

We don't have a map in the current version. I removed the previous map (edit) as it was WP:OR (no sources mentioned) and obviously wrong. Indeed, according to the sources mentioned in the article and especially Ethnologue's map and Davey's map (p. 4 of Coastal Dhofari Arabic: A Sketch Grammar), Dhofari Arabic is NOT spoken in Yemen and is only spoken in Oman in the coastal region of the Dhofar Governorate around Salala. That why I suggest using this map (on the right) that is sourced using Ethnologue's map and which agrees with Davey's map. What do you think? A455bcd9 (talk) 18:10, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

There is a better map (that is about this dialect and nothing else) published on "Coastal Dhofari Arabic, A Sketch Grammar By Richard J. Davey" that I will be uploading soon. M.Bitton (talk) 18:12, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

I don't think that there's a usable alternative mpa in Davey's book. The first problem is that there's no dialect map: On page four there's a map of the whole region (no dialects identified); on page seven there's a map of coastal settlements. The second problem is that Davey identifies Coastal Dhofari Arabic as a distinct dialect from Dhofari Arabic (page two). It seems to me that it's reasonable to retain the larger map unless a source contradicts it: Davey—speaking about Coastal Dhofari Arabic—doesn't seem to. Am I missing some portion of his argument? Pathawi (talk) 18:27, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

@M.Bitton, there are only two maps in "Coastal Dhofari Arabic, A Sketch Grammar By Richard J. Davey": Map 1, p. 4, shows the "Geographical overview of the wider Dhofar region" and Map 2, p. 7, shows the "Local settlements on the coastal plain of Salalah". None of them really show the extent of Dhofari Arabic. A455bcd9 (talk) 18:27, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Haha @Pathawi "Great minds think alike" :) A455bcd9 (talk) 18:28, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Isn't the "geographical overview of the wider Dhofar region" supposed to be enough? Since when dialects have a defined border (something that the people of Ethnologue seem to think)? M.Bitton (talk) 18:31, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: the "geographical overview of the wider Dhofar region" appears in the "Geography" section and serves to illustrate this section. It's not about languages. And the author doesn't say whether Dhofari Arabic is spoken in Sahil, and/or Escarpment, and/or Gabal (mountain plateau). Therefore, it cannot be used. A455bcd9 (talk) 19:07, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Personally, I don't love bordered dialect maps. However, most things that get mapped don't have real borders—that's mostly a feature of political entities. Maps are usually gross approximations that gesture toward reality. At present, Wikipedia has quite a lot of dialect maps with borders, and there's no policy or guideline deprecating them. This map draws on a source for Dhofari Arabic (not Coastal Dhofari Arabic, as in Davey's book) that has been treated as reliable on a great number of Wikipedia pages, & which has been cited in academic literature—whether I like it or not. No reliable source that contradicts that has been presented. (Davey does not reject this map, does not present an alternate dialect map, & does not write about Dhofari Arabic.) Dhofari Arabic is identified as a dialect spoken both by nomadic people and in settlements, so a settlement map alone certainly doesn't serve as a stand-in for a dialect map—especially for a different dialect. There's no reason to exclude the map without a contradicting source. Pathawi (talk) 19:09, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

General remark on language maps and borders: Ethnologue's convention is to "[show] a language in an area if at least 25% of the population in that area speak the language fluently as an L1. However, a minority language may be shown on a map even if the speakers do not comprise more than 25% of the population in any given area. This exception is made when the minority language is indigenous to that area only or, when there is historical significance for the language in that region." A455bcd9 (talk) 19:25, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

I still don't love dialect border maps, but you don't need me to love 'em: You just need me to acknowledge that reliable sources use 'em, & I do. 🫤 Despite my unpublished objections, plenty of skilled dialectologists in peer-reviewed journals use dialect maps. (The jerks…) Pathawi (talk) 19:30, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

I agree with you on dialect border maps... Anyway, I think this map is fine and sourced and probably the best we have. So I would suggest adding it to the article. A455bcd9 (talk) 19:34, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

If you insist on using Ethnologue for this dialect, at least do it properly and replace the map that you removed with a similar one (i.e., one that complies with our image content policy). It's a very simple process in this case, but if you'd rather have someone else do it, start a request on WP:GL/MAP (and ping me from there if you want). M.Bitton (talk) 02:31, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, feel free to do so @M.Bitton! Thanks for your help. In the meantime, I thought we could use File:Arabic Varieties Map.svg. What do you think? A455bcd9 (talk) 07:25, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

@A455bcd9: Did you read what I said about the image content policy and starting a request on WP:GL/MAP (if you can't or don't want to do it)? M.Bitton (talk) 12:33, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

@M.Bitton, I did and I've just started a request here. Thanks a lot for offering to help! In the meantime, I suggest using File:Arabic Varieties Map.svg, as it complies with Wikipedia:Image use policy from what I understand. What do you think? Cheers, A455bcd9 (talk) 12:55, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

No it doesn't comply with the policy which states that "the relevant aspect of the image should be clear and central". Anyway, I have taken the request. M.Bitton (talk) 13:03, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

@M.Bitton, yes "should be", but if we don't have anything else, the map I suggested is better than nothing: it is "clear" but not "central" for sure. Anyway, thanks for taking the request! 🤗 Best, A455bcd9 (talk) 13:05, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

speak arbi

speak oman arbi 5.162.31.36 (talk) 11:29, 15 October 2023 (UTC)