Talk:Desertification/Archive 1

Archive 1

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Map age

The map was produced in 1998, nearly 20 years ago. Are there more recent maps with updated forecasts we can show? Transparent 6lue (talk) 01:25, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I just commented on the map, not only is it outdated, it's most likely just plain wrong... Texas is greener than the Amazon forest, the east coast of the USA looks like a tropical jungle while Brazil looks like the Sahara desert runs across it, and Russia is all blue while Norway is all green? 186.129.26.71 (talk) 07:55, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Why do we clear out trees when there is abandoned land that we can build on?

I don't understand because we are clearing out plants that make mot of our pitch

because there are more considerations when building than whether the land is already cleared or not. Should probably be moe of a consideration but it isn't 65.75.110.90 (talk) 13:56, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

also because land does not remain cleared when abandon more than a few years unless climatic desertification or severe erosion is also a factor. Both these factors tend to discourage building at less any but the most sophisticated levels.

Plus abandon land is not a wide spread phenomena especially without cause. In rural areas the land is unlikely to actually be abandon when considered as a whole. You are probably seeing a large plot of farm land with several locations suitable for farm house. Often modern farmers abandon old housing sites in favor of sites giving better access to their whole farm for heavy farm equipment or better drainage for feed lots. Industrially changing transportation access, demolition costs, past contamination or NEW environmental restrictions are major factors. For retail businesses neighborhood economics, traffic, and crime rates are the chief concerns though redevelopment costs and local government financial incentives also have a role. 99.93.101.231 (talk) 03:42, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

I will also add here that in many countries where desertification occurs wood is the primary source of fuel. The usage of wood as fuel is just increasing the amount of clearance. --Alowishus321 (talk) 15:25, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Haiti is a horrible example of human overpopulation at low technological levels and use of wood as fuel source. Earthquakes and hurricanes are actually only minor increases to the normal level of human misery and environmental decay. 99.93.101.231 (talk) 03:42, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Correction Required

This is an excellent topic, but unfortunately there are some BAD words used in paragraph 2 line 2 and in line 2 of the Causes heading. Is there any volunteer (with desertification knowledge) who could maintain the esteem technicality and correct the text?

Furthermore, current thinkning is divided about whether anthropogenic or natural forcing are reposible. On the basis of evidence relating to Sahelian drying (see the most recent issue of Science), this article needs a serious reevalutaion towards the role of natral forcings, namely the weakening of the African monsson due to chnages in sea-surface temperatures as a result of ENSO.... I would do it myself, but i've got exams coming up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcsaucy (talk • contribs) 16:04, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Agreed there simply has not been enough time to collect data on the level of human contributions to desertification. Severe human abuse certainly does not help. But a lot of studies seem to show that humans only SPEED UP natural tends by about 7-15 years.

Plus the writer is ignoring a fair amount of new archeological data that indicates that occasionally nature has more radical rates of climate change, i.e. ice ages and new deserts in a few hundred to as little as 25 years. While the reasons for these changes are only hypothetical, most planetologists and paleontologists not tied to the ecological movement now longer subscribe to climate changes being driven only by plate tectonic movements over 10s millions of years. Half a billion years of evidence just do not support the shape of the earth as the only major natural force behind climate to those not bound to the ecological cause (often a bit close minded nowadays with their own tinge of Gaea religion - disappointing since it is a good cause within actual scientific bounds.) 99.93.101.231 (talk) 03:58, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Another [minor] correction required - the article states that the Sahara is the largest desert in the world, this is incorrect. The largest desert in the world is Antarctica. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.5.226.53 (talk) 09:30, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Current and historical examples

Hope I'm doing this left - first edit - anyway, when the Desert of Maine is mentioned, is also mentions that the desert is growing. From what I understand, that area is just allowed to remain that way as a tourist attraction, and is not any form of threat.. Got a source on the growing comment?

Historical record, from the brochures. The edge of the Desert of Maine is spreading. It started out small, and hasn't stopped growing. =Axlq 14:05, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Livestock

What do Livestock get out of desertification?

Themselves? Nothing much, there will be less area available for grazing. Overgrazing is seen as one of the major "human" causes of desertification. The size of the effect is related to the carrying capacity. --Alowishus321 (talk) 15:29, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Chemical and physical changes in soil

I think this article would be great if it included some information on the specific processes that take place to transform fertile soil into sand.

your point is a pretty good one to get some soils chemistry. note, however, that sand is not the only outcome. sometimes desertification occurs on prior rainforest soils without any sand involved...just loss of nutrients and erosion Anlace 03:25, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

when sand is involved it either blows in covering soil or as was mentioned over components of soils leach away with water or wind leaving only the heavier and less water soluble sand and rock. Lack of protective vegetation makes wind movement of soil and small sand a major force. Plants both hold soil down and obstruct air and water movement. Truth is deserts do not have common soil chemistry accept a tendency to lack more "mobile" soil components.

But in many cases deserts simply lack water or some single important life factor in those cases. The Antarctic frozen deserts are an example. Much of the Mohave desert in the US has compacted soil under the thin layer of rock and "sand" and that desert blooms tremendously when it does get rain. Of course that natural desert has only been a full desert for less than 1000 years. 99.93.101.231 (talk) 04:08, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

plagiarism?

The first paragraph under "Historical and current desertification" seems to be lifted straight from http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/deserts/desertification/. And I haven't seen any attribution (other than as a source for the whole article). Is this appropriate? R343L 05:27, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

your point is well taken. i have brought some material in from other sources cited and made substantial modifications of style and content to that section. the material itself was rather important, so that some of the substance is retained. hopefully someone else can do a better job than i and improve the lead para further. at least it s not plagiarism now. btw i have no idea who placed that para in the first place. Anlace 05:45, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Its source is cited, even though indirectly, so I don't think it's plagiarism. And USGS material is public domain, so it's not a copyright violation. I don't see any problems with this. Bryan 05:50, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

It came in here and it was an extensive amount of material brought over. Its public domain, wikified, and cited. Plus had an informative edit summary. Looks quite proper. -- Paleorthid 06:00, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The question is moot as it's been fixed (I don't login to wikipedia that often), but when I was looking at it, there was nearly an entire paragraph copied verbatim. Unless it's in quotation marks (or clearly set apart as a quote), I consider that plagiarism (the copyright status of the source is irrelevant to whether it's plagiarism or not). So maybe you were referring to the revamped version when you say it's proper? :) R343L 16:42, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

To be clear, I was referring to the original contribution here. While I appreciate the importance of this issue and the need for sensitivity, I respectfully disagree with your position. As the plagiarism article lays the groundwork for, the distinction you support amounts to a community standard. It applies to the community you operate in, it doesn't apply within Wikipedia. Here, since we are being relied upon not to contribute original work, it goes without saying that everything must originate somewhere else that is both reliable and verifiable. In that context, large (attributed) sections have come over intact from the Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition without segregating quotes and without plagiarism being raised as an issue. For stylistic reasons, imported text must be altered. It is necessary to wikify, and retool for NPOV, to convert to unambiguous terminology and to use spelling consistent within WP, to restructure for readibility. When it involves works in the public domain, none of these stylistic improvements are driven by a need to avoid plagiarism. -- Paleorthid 20:51, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I have added {{USGovernment|sourceURL=http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/deserts/desertification/}} to the article per this discussion. -- Paleorthid 21:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Citation request

The citation added does not address the sentence about soil loss in deserts due to off-road vehicle use, and its control by banning off-road vehicles. "There are a number of locations where off-road travel has destroyed microbiotic soil crust, destroyed desert vegetations, crushed animal burrows ... impacts that may last for years." Microbiotic soil crusts must be tied into soil loss, and future impacts on the ecosystem, and this says nothing about banning off-road vehicles in desert areas. KP Botany 22:00, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Why a disambig line for Decertification?

Why does there have to be a disambig with Union Decertification? Could we assume that Wikipedia readers can spell? AllGloryToTheHypnotoad (talk) 15:26, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Contradiction in causes?

In the discussion of droughts, there are the following two sentences, "While drought is a contributing factor, the root causes are all related to man's overexploitation of the environment.[citation needed] There is no geological evidence that deserts expanded significantly before the advent of civilization." Then, further down, under Prehistoric Patterns, there are the following sentences, "Desertification is a historic phenomenon; the world's great deserts were formed by natural processes interacting over long intervals of time. During most of these times, deserts have grown and shrunk independent of human activities." They seem to contradict themselves. I don't have the time to address it myself, but could someone more knowledgable try to clarify the statements so they don't clash?Petronivs (talk) 14:09, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

yeah there is some Gaea eco-religion/ideology slipping in. Some only slightly tainted and some outright rejection of ideas that do not support their cause. But because of that I can guarantee that they have some published works to quote as sources - with effort enough to pass the Wikipedia hurdle. Fortunately extremists tend to reject the necessity of providing multiple sources. One of Wikipedia's little problems. Scientists often get embroiled with ideological battles and establish their own academic publishing circles. Unfortunately while the extreme ecological cause may still have some brilliant minds, those are seldom the work and opinions that float to the top of the popular group think. More unfortunately the politically correct world to which Wikipedia belongs is unwilling to subject anyone with a diploma to the test of proper logic and mathematical analysis. (Apparently the loudest crowd noises are deemed the most correct.) I am pretty sure the majority of extremist groups aren't the brightest graduates of the most rigorous schools.

I'd be more than willing to listen to the opinion of an extremist with good use of logic, math and experimental method (isolating contributing factors from personal bias), although those contrasting/dissenting opinions should be included in their own section for the sake of clarity. 99.93.101.231 (talk) 04:26, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Anthropological Bias

This article, although informative in some respects, seems highly biased in favour of the view that desertification is caused by man's activities. To take one example: "It is a common misconception that droughts by themselves cause desertification. While drought is a contributing factor, the root causes are all related to man's overexploitation of the environment. There is no geological evidence that deserts expanded significantly before the advent of civilization."

The last sentence especially is directly contradicted by other articles on Wikipedia itself, such as the article on the Sahara desert.

The second sentence is the kind of statement I am taking exception to here however. It is clearly opinion, but with a vast body of often conflicting scientific evidence, some supporting the contention, some neutral, some opposed, and much of it detailed elsewhere on Wikipedia. It is not presented here as opinion however, but as fact.

Can someone who knows something of the subject please take a look at this article and root out or balance up such expressions of opinion?

Murderouspigeon (talk) 12:40, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Since there is controversy between "authorities" there is no problem with including contrasting opinions. However, this article could do a better job of separating and identifying material by the camp to which each belongs.

The most difficult job is identifying the most popular theory among trained "hand on" authorities as opposed to the most popular theory among concerned with opinions of the general population (politics). Keep in mind that some authorities are authorities more in the sense of one trained in political ideology (which is certainly important when discussion focus on politics over the real physical world). I would even include some scientists who have a degree and an extreme opinion but little time and breadth in real world "field data" or formal scientific investigation sites as "political;". Traveling as a tourist to various popular climatic sites to give video commentary is usually pretty much politics based on second hand opinions and knowledge. Real scientific authorities should have some personal practical verification of at least a sprinkling of ideas and concepts to which they subscribe.

I also think the extreme political groups have a valid place in Wikipedia and the world -- as a force for change as long as we recognize we need not adopt their proposed changes in full.

99.93.101.231 (talk) 04:44, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Chaim1221 (talk) : This page is heavily biased towards the opinion of the racist deep ecology school of thought. It eschews real knowledge about swidden-fallow indigenous cultures and instead blames indigenous people for the slash-and-burn deforestation that results from petroleum companies, monocultural agrobusiness, and the like (see e.g. Charles Clement (2006), Ruth Denny (1999), Fernando Echavarria (1998), Gregory Cajete (1999), Virginia Nazarea (1999), Sven Wunder (2003), Fikret Birkes (1999), etc.). This voice needs to be corrected throughout the article. It is not indigenous cultures that are causing the damage; it is Western reductionist agricultural methods and the ecologically destructive methods of profit-seeking, resource-extracting corporations. Chaim1221 (talk) 15:24, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Version 0.7

This article needs to be cleaned up before it can be included in an offline selection. The "historical and current" section gives a lot of examples, but doesn't really organise the information well. The "See also" section has a cleanup tag, and the references definitely need to be separated from the external links, as these mean two very different things. Although there are a reasonable number of references, some factual assertions still need to be better referenced - environmental topics are often controversial, and referencing is a very important issue here. With a good cleanup, a rewrite/organization and a bit of new content, with strong referencing, this could be a nice B and a article we would definitely want for future offline releases. Walkerma (talk) 05:01, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Claim of no evidence for expansion of deserts before civilization

I've removed this because it is just wrong. A quick Google search turns up [1], [2], [3] and more. It was also being used to support a pov sourced on just one book. dougweller (talk) 14:03, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Definition and contradiction

The article seems to wander all over the place. It starts with a definition "Desertification is the degradation of land in arid and dry sub-humid areas, resulting primarily from natural activities and influenced by climatic variation." and then we have bits arguing for mainly natural activities and others claiming the root causes are manmade. Part of the problem is probably pov editing, but the fact that the definition is so arbitrary may be another part. I suggest those interested in improving the article so that it shows all significant points of view on both defintion and causes see, for a start, [4] p.9 and [5] p. 3. and do perhaps further Google Books searches. dougweller (talk) 14:16, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. This article could be a very good article, but it needs immediate attention for NPOV and inline citations. If it's still in this state when I get time again, I'll try to fix it. Jgr2 (talk) 06:39, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

land reclamation& countering decertification

The countering desertification section redirects "further reading" to land reclamation, while land reclamation redirects "further reading" to countering desertification. I removed it from this article.Pisharov (talk) 22:50, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I feel this section needs revising to lift article standards. Perhaps a heading with physical means of countering and a heading that focuses on countering human factors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.55.232.241 (talk) 01:07, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

wikipedia is not a 7th grade essay

this is garbage writing:

"finally," "this could help alot"

somebody please re-write 90% of this article.

Epiktetos1 (talk) 03:31, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an open project, available for anyone to edit. If you see a problem that needs fixing, then fix it. You don't have to ask others to do so. =Axlq 17:26, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Titanium oxide to combat desertification

At http://www.permaculture.org/nm/images/uploads/Permaculture_Techniques.pdf , there is following text:

If you have a situation where you want to plant crops in sand dunes, use a pound or two of titanium oxide. You will quickly be able to establish plants in the sand, because nitrogen is continually produced after a rain. The ammonia is then is carried down into the sand. If you are going to lay down a wind barrier, this is how you do it.

Not sure however whether the nitrogen would help in maintaining water levels in the soil (which is the most limiting factor; and not the fertilisation alone; aldough perhaps soil structure is changed)

81.243.186.54 (talk) 12:17, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

References

Mankind root cause of desertification?

The article says "It is a common misconception that droughts by themselves cause desertification. While drought is a contributing factor, the root causes are all related to man's overexploitation of the environment.[1]" I doubt the claim that implies that no deserts would exist if it weren't for people causing them, unless someone can point me to a source that proves there were no deserts before man existed. Joepnl (talk) 18:02, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I have inserted a neutral definition, which incldes the effcets of natural causes. Desertification occurred long before mans arrival on the planet. Peterlewis (talk) 07:20, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

You have not inserted a neutral definition, you have inserted a definition which fundamentally alters one's perception of the entire article they had been reading once your sentence is reached. You have boldly stated that NATURAL causes are what is responsible for the majority of desertification. If you have a reliable source stating this, please do so. I have no problem with any copyediting you want to do, or if you want to mention that it can happen naturally, but what you're doing is attempting to not only downplay the manmade aspect but to say it's not the chief reason. This is not the way the article has been until now. It's not about adhering to orthodox beliefs, it's about "if you're going to make a change this drastic you need to cite it." Kelseypedia (talk) 09:57, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Is E.O. Wilson the only source for this claim, and thus the majority of the claims in the article? Is his book a peer reviewed source of research? Is there any other science research that backs up this claim? To base the primary aspects of this article off one book, and perhaps the opinion of one person is quite suspect, especially since it is not easy to check the source. If this article is going to make a scientific statement and present it as a fact, then it needs to be backed up with some more sourcing and preferably some sources that can be more easily checked. Arzel (talk) 23:29, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I will ask again? The majority of this article is based off one book that is not easy to check. Can any additional sources be provided to back up the claim? Arzel (talk) 03:33, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

1. Repeatedly stating something that is manifestly false will not convince anyone that it is true. How can you say that "the majority of this article is based off of one book"? Which of the 30+ sources is the "one book" that the majority of the article is based on?
2. As far as human causes of desertification -- use Google. For example [6] ... -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 03:12, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

The primary claim that man is the root cause of desertification is sourced to one book. Almost all of the lead and a major portion of the first section stating the causes are sourced to that book. The fundamental cause of dersertification is stated to be overpopulation to which that one book seems to be the primary source for that claim. That claim has been further stated throughout the article, however it is either uncited or not within the source claimed. Unless some additional sources can be found to make that specific link the language should be toned down. As a simple cause/effect relationship, overpopulation is not a cause but an effect. Populations grow/fall as a response to the environment. Also, the current article seems to be mostly the opinion of one author. Arzel (talk) 03:38, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

UN Launches Decade-Long Effort to Boost Prospects for the World’s Drylands

In 2007, the United Nations General Assembly declared 2010-2020 the UN Decade for Deserts and the Fight against Desertification to heighten public awareness about the threat of desertification and land degradation as well as educate affected populations on ways to combat it by practicing sustainable land management to eradicate poverty, one of its key drivers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.169.123.198 (talk) 20:13, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Plants

Added a link to http://desertification.wordpress.com/3-interesting-plant-species/ Not sure though which plants are soil-fixating, which improve quality of the soil, ... Look into it 91.182.192.103 (talk) 09:02, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

DevCoCast

Perhaps that DevCoCast can be mentioned as a tool to keep track of the state of the vegetation of the areas surrounding deserts/and or vegetated areas/oases within deserts; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Earth_Observation_System_of_Systems#Implementing_GEOSS 91.182.235.189 (talk) 08:56, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Sahara expansion?

I cannot find a single authoritative source claiming that the "Sahara is currently expanding south at a rate of up to 48 kilometres per year". Indeed, New Scientist ran an article basically saying that the evidence is unclear, and the desert may not be expanding at all 1 2. We need to find decent sources, or remove the claim. DrJimothyCatface (talk) 09:19, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree that the statement is not accurate, and that the sourcing is poor. I have been working to improve the article here, but it is a work in progress, and many problems still exist. The problem you specified could easily be fixed. I will get to it when I have time later. For now, here are a few sources that discuss desertification in the Sahara, which could be used to rewrite a proper (long) paragraph on the Sahara: [7][8][9]. More could easily be found, but those should give us plenty to start with. Thank you for your suggestion. Feel free to use these sources to fix it yourself, if you wish. Take care. ~ Mesoderm (talk) 17:59, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Nature Comment, resource

From Talk:Dust_Bowl # ... Desertification: The next dust bowl by Joseph Romm in Nature (journal) 478, 450–451 (27 October 2011, published online 26 October 2011) doi:10.1038/478450a See also effects of global warming, Planetary boundaries, etc ... If you can not access that one, try [this self-published link] just for background and the highlights. 99.181.157.189 (talk) 03:06, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Best design for hedgerow layout ?

The hexagon (beehive-cell shaped) design seems to be the best one as it requires less hedges. Can it be mentioned here, or can perhaps an image of it be included ? Some such hedgerows have allready been used, ie in the Kufra-oasis, see 24 7 29 N 23 13 32 E at Google Earth 91.182.116.161 (talk) 08:12, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Contributing to the fall of Carthage, Rome and "Greece?"

Idiotic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 214.27.9.201 (talk) 09:21, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Olivia is allegric to latex

Myles Kenner,12, questions Olivia Bouldin on her alle — Preceding unsigned comment added by 19kharl0 (talk • contribs) 15:19, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Decline of lakes

Lake Chad has shrunk considerably since the 1960's, as have many lakes in third world and developing countries, including Russia. But this is a different topic and phenomenon, not due to desertification.Royalcourtier (talk) 09:56, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Vulnerability map

The vulnerability map at the very top of this article is from 1998. doesnt that mean its outdated? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.176.101.213 (talk) 15:47, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

problem

I have a problem..😐 pls give mi this information in 'MARATHI' language... Rushi kumbhar (talk) 13:11, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

New editor

Hello, I am an individual who is planning on going into the geology field, I am very interested in desertification and am planning on adding some of the information that I have, uncovered through my own research. first off, I want to mention that I am doing this for a class that I am currently attending at my community college. With that I want to note that I am making changes and posts for my class and grade. Now this means that I will be taking all my posts very seriously and I will a lot effort in to them. I will also be quite active in the take section. Next thing that I want to mention is that I know a lot of you have put time and effort in this Wikipedia page and I am not here to ruin this page, as I believe that this is a very major problem in today's world. Lastly, as I have gone through the article I have seen some bias kind of spread throughout the article. which has mostly come through the omission of some information, and one of my goals is to fix this by doing as I mentioned earlier, as adding information I have found through my own research. I look forward to working with all of you editors, and please do feel free to comment on all of my edits and changes.Supermidget20 (talk) 02:03, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

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Removed some See Also

I removed some links from the See also section, some of them were already in the text, some not as a wikilink so I provided the link. I removed the "too many see also template". Hope everything is ok. -- Beleriandcrises (talk) 08:19, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

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/* Managed grazing */ Removed outdated claim

Section removed: range scientists have however not been able to experimentally confirm his claims.

Both sources cited are more than seven years old. Article below from USDA/KY cites considerably more research showing experimental replication of Savoy's results - also originally in same time frame.

ArchenaTN (talk) 15:50, 14 July 2019 (UTC)ArchenaTN

You can't really use the NRCS article to justify Savory, especially in terms of desertification. Every one of the pictures in the article is in quite lush conditions and there is no mention of the article of arid conditions. --Salix alba (talk): 20:21, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

References

New Editor on board

Hello, I'm a college student that has adopted desertification as a page to edit for my English semester project. I'll be making posts in the talk section here throughout the semester asking about what edits I can make to this article. I hope I'm able to help. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orpheus71 (talk • contribs) 01:03, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

New Editor

I am a student and I am apart of a class. I will be adopting this article for my semester long project so I will be fairly active. I am excited to become a contributor of this article.

Another New Editor

I am new to Wikipedia and have chosen to work on editing this article as part of a semester-long class project. I look forward to contributing and will be discussing any major edits in the Talk page! --Username451 (talk) 01:12, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Change to the History section

The History section of the article mentions desertification as a contributing factor to the fall of several major empires. After looking through the sources listed however, it seems like this is taken nearly word for word from an offhand comment in “Ecology of Desert Systems,” and never followed up on. The Lowdermilk source listed actually seems to imply the opposite, that North Africa, the main region it discusses, remained fertile until after the end of the Roman Empire. It speculates that the grazing cultures that took over the area after the fall of Rome may have contributed to the desertification process by way of overgrazing. This source contains far more detail, but is from 1939, and may be outdated, but seems to have more relevance than a single comment with no explanation. I am considering removing the sentence in question entirely, but am open to rewriting with Lowdermilk’s ideas. Username451 (talk) 01:22, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Updating Info on Green Wall

Looking through some articles I'd like to update the information under the "countermeasures" section about the great green wall of china saying about 30 million hectares of forests have been planted and that desert land in china has been shrinking by an annual average of 1980 square km. Orpheus71 (talk) 00:58, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

References

Lake Chad

Having noticed the image of Lake Chad, I found it strange that there was no mention of it in the article. I have done some research into the specifics of Lake Chad’s situation, and am now including a brief overview in the article.Username451 (talk) 14:59, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Overpopulation

I would like to add overpopulation to the section dealing with causes, as it seems to be the greatest exacerbating factor. Overpopulation leads to overgrazing, overfarming, deforestation and more rapid degradation of the soil.Username451 (talk) 15:46, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

I would like to further explain your edit by describing how all of those causes are intertwined and what roles they play in desertification. For example, overpopulation causes a higher demand for certain supplies. Those supplies include livestock, wood, and plants. the higher demand for livestock would result in overgrazing, the demand for wood results in deforestation, and the demand for more plants results in overfarming of the land.--Mialovesgettinggoodgrades (talk) 03:59, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Causes by loss?

I noticed that the title of the section, causes by loss, is rather confusing. I honestly still don’t know what it is supposed to mean. I think it means causes, If so I would like to change it to Causes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mialovesgettinggoodgrades (talk • contribs) 00:51, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Addition of an Effects Section

Throughout the article, there are few mentions of some of the effects of desertification. For example, the loss of biodiversity is mentioned under the countermeasures tab but it is not expanded on anywhere else in the article. There is also a vegetation patterning section which is an effect of desertification. Desertification has multiple impacts on the people, on the climate, and on economics. The start of this subsection would greatly benefit the article by providing more information and organization of the effects of desertification. I would also like to begin this subsection with the reduction of vegetation cover and the increase in sand/dust storms.--Mialovesgettinggoodgrades (talk) 16:21, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Definition of the word

I would like to make some edits, wanted feedback first. The article currently starts with a definition of desertification as degradation by which a relatively dry area of land becomes a desert. This is supported in the Definitions of words section: "The most widely accepted of these is that of the Princeton University Dictionary which defines it as "the process of fertile land transforming into desert typically as a result of deforestation, drought or improper/inappropriate agriculture. My problem is that I am skeptical that this _is_ "the most widely accepted" definition. This "most accepted" statement is sourced but I do not have access to this 2005 source to satisfy my interest. But it seems so wrong, I am pretty convinced I do not need to see it to rewrite the article. Saying that desertification is the same as desert formation is counter to the current understanding among ecologists and land restoration folks. Undegraded deserts are understood as having vibrant ecosystems with health biomes supporting an array of ecosystem services. Newer, more accurate understandings of desertification available to lower the "widely accepted" ranking of the land-becoming-a-desert definition:

1. Encyclopedia Britannica (2009): "process by which natural or human causes reduce the biological productivity of drylands (arid and semiarid lands). ... The concept does not refer to the physical expansion of existing deserts but rather to the various processes that threaten all dryland ecosystems..."
2. IUCN: (2017) "degradation in drylands is known as desertification, and is the loss of the biological or economic productivity of land."
3. NASA (2007)"its evocative name, desertification isn’t the march of sand dunes through inhabited areas. Rather, it is the permanent degradation of previously fertile land. Human causes of desertification include overgrazing, the buildup of salt in irrigated soils, and topsoil erosion. Permanent changes in climate, particularly rainfall, are responsible for natural desertification."
4. Structure and functioning of dryland ecosystems in a changing world (2017): "as a reduction or loss of biological or economic productivity ..."

I will give this a few days before I proceed, will reference the talk page in my edit summaries -- Paleorthid (talk) 17:38, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

South America

I would like to add a few sentences regarding desertification in South America. The article as it stands seems to imply that this only happens in a few areas of the world, when it seems to be a much more widespread issue. Username451 (talk) 21:08, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Climate Change

The sentence regarding climate change seems odd, with no explanation provided for why this "probably" contributes to desertification. I checked the source, and I think the information is worth presenting in the article, so I would like to replace the sentence with one that explains why these are linked. Username451 (talk) 23:24, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Environmental Refugees

I have come across some information about environmental refugees in sub-Saharan Africa that I believe is applicable to the section on poverty and adds to the overall article. It includes predictions regarding the number of refugees as well as discussions about the impact of large scale migrations in economically vulnerable areas. Username451 (talk) 23:31, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Intensive Farming

I would like to add some information about intensive farming under the causes section. Intensive farming is a technique used by farmers to increase the amount of product per unit of land. It is a technique that requires a lot of fertilizer, fungicides, and herbicides. By using intensive farming it overexploits the land, therefore contributing to desertification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mialovesgettinggoodgrades (talk • contribs) 16:04, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Allan Savory

I have noticed that Allan Savory is mentioned two times within the article but he holds a minority view. The Savory edits are sure to mention that his view is controversial but I believe that his words hold too much weight. According to Wikipedia's undue weight policy, I believe that the savory edit under the managed grazing section should be reformed and minimized. The edit itself does not specifically state how to manage overgrazing, instead it explains holistic management. It even gives an example which is too much information for a minority viewpoint. I would like to add how Allan savory's method manages grazing. Instead of explaining holistic management, I would also add a link to the holistic management wiki page.--Mialovesgettinggoodgrades (talk) 17:06, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

I would also like to remove allan savory's edit under the cause section because his placement there does not provide a cause. It introduces a minority viewpoint's solution. I would like to move it to a controversial solutions section. --Mialovesgettinggoodgrades (talk) 22:10, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Food Security

I would like to add a subsection about food security under the effects tab because this article doesn't have very much information on the effects of desertification. I would like to separate it into two parts, the first part would be about the global concerns surrounding food security and the second part would be about subsistence farming in arid areas. For the global part, I will mention a demand and supply situation and for the subsistence farms in arid communities, I will explain the lack of knowledge and technology that these smallholders lack.

I found all of this information on the third world atlas of desertification. https://wad.jrc.ec.europa.eu/croplands--Mialovesgettinggoodgrades (talk) 16:26, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Be bold. And thank you for taking this on. My thought is that in step with you crafting your proposed additions amplifying these two themes, food security and smallholder ignorance, contemporaneous supporting additions should be made to the related articles: Smallholding, Subsistence_agriculture, and Food_security#Land_degradation. They don't have to be extensive, just connective.

Comment on the "knowledge these smallholders lack': While not disputing the overwhelming fact that land degradation is a consequence of uninformed cultural practices, I would gently offer that in balance land degradation is also a consequence of established science's ignorance of the complex relationships between smallholder communities and the land. The source you found should be used with humility, not with the simplistic or imperialistic convictions used in the recent past in applying mankind's ultimately incomplete understanding of how best to respond to land degradation. When we "discover" cultural practices that demonstrate ways new-to-science to enrich soil and increase food production, we are reminded that a tone of egalitarian respect is owed to all that live on and close to the land. That humble and respectful tone is present the resource you cited, and it is important to effectively engaging the challenge of land degradation. -- Paleorthid (talk) 19:07, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

References

Subsidies as Countermeasure

I would like to add some information on fertilizer subsidies to the countermeasures section, as this has been shown to help restore soil fertility in several countries, including India, Zambia, and Malawi.Username451 (talk) 22:54, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Definitions of words

Looking at the Definitions of words section, it seems the last sentence would fit much better in the history section. It doesn't really define anything, but seems like useful information regarding the study of desertification. Feel free to let me know if anyone disagrees.Username451 (talk) 22:59, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Lake Chad Image

I noticed the text under the Lake Chad image didn't match the information I had found on the lake. I attempted to check the source, but the link is dead. I will likely rewrite this to match the information I have found, with a new and working link.Username451 (talk) 23:30, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Mongolia as an area effected

I'd like to add some information on the Mongolian grasslands under "areas effected". The overgrazing since the 90's has caused the Mongolian grasslands to degrade. </ref>Orpheus71 (talk) 18:54, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

References

new info on green wall of china

I'd like to add something in countermeasures saying how the frequency of sandstorms has dropped in china due to the green wall. </ref>Orpheus71 (talk) 19:19, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

References

areas affected lake chad

I'd like to add how irrigation withdrawal and annual rainfall dropping have caused lake chad to dry up and how the lake shore dwellers are poverty stricken. Orpheus71 (talk) 19:53, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

References

add info on great green wall of africa in countermeasures

I'd like to add some information about the great green wall in Africa and some of it's results under "countermeasures".Orpheus71 (talk) 20:16, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

References

poverty in mongolia

I'd like to add some info on migrations in Mongolia and that farmers need to graze very carefully to preserve the land.Orpheus71 (talk) 21:10, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

References

Bad source

At time of writing, citation 22 is this blog. Might have been overlooked because it's written in French but this is not a trustworthy source. It's written by someone called Alex who presents no qualifications and writes shorts blog posts about stuff he finds interesting including passports, hotels, so-called super-foods and, of course, the Sahara desert. He doesn't cite his sources and I've found some definite inaccuracies. I'm going to remove all the citations of this source. The actual article in question in here. I'll add a 'citation needed' tag for now wherever this leaves material without citation. Duria-Antiquor (talk) 10:15, 16 June 2020 (UTC)