Talk:Denis of Paris

Latest comment: 2 years ago by Favonian in topic Requested move 13 April 2022

Merge

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Should this not be at St. Denis? Bastie 14:40, 17 November 2005 (UTC)Reply

Easy. Click on Denis (disambiguation) and make a dab page linking to all the uses of Denis at Wikipedia that you have in mind. Once you're finished {{Other}} at the head of the article here will make a link. --Wetman 03:10, 18 March 2007 (UTC)Reply
Ok done, thanks. Drutt 03:49, 18 March 2007 (UTC)Reply
Wow! excellent! who'da known?--Wetman 06:43, 18 March 2007 (UTC)Reply

"Denis", "Dennis"

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To avoid confusion:

There is no difference between "Dennis" and "Denis". The spelling with only one "n" is even the older one (used mainly in Scotland, England, Russia and Germany) and is not(!) necessarily pronounced as in french without the "s".

This article being about "Denis" and not specifically about the "Saint Denis" (at least the Title suggests this), makes this dfferentiation important.


"passio" linked to "passion"?

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I think the link from the word "passio" to the page for "passion" is unclear. Seems like a "passio" is refering to a written document ... whereas the page on "passion" refers to specific things or musical compositions. I think we should either unlink it, or enhance the "passion" page to mention "passio"s? Lynchmob98 19:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

Good call. I've remade Passio now to redirect to Passion (Christianity). Passio is simply Latin for passion, in this particular sense. A musical Passion is simply a musical setting. A musical Passion or a Passion play, are simply specific forms of presenting the Passion. Of course the Passion has come down as a series of written documents. --Wetman 20:44, 20 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for simply unlinking 'passio' ... just wanted to let you know it was noticed :-) Lynchmob98 05:27, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

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Sorry - added note about the medieval dispute between the Abbey of St Denis and Paris Cathedral as to the latter's claimed relic - and consequences of this for artistic depictions. Was about to link to an image on my website illustrating this (http://www.medievalart.org.uk/LeMans/111_pages/LeMans_Bay111_PanelB5.htm) but then noticed in the WP help files that linking to one's own website is frowned upon. Unfortunately I can't stick all my images on Wikimedia owing to French IPRights issues so not sure what the protocol is. Does anyone know any other images of Denis holding just the crown of his head that would suffice? StuartLondon (talk) 15:06, 12 June 2009 (UTC)Reply

You can link to that picture, it would be fine. The prohibitions on linking to your own website is meant to prevent self-promotion/spamming. Thanks for checking about it. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 03:03, 15 June 2009 (UTC)Reply
Many thanks for the clarification Carl - have gone ahead and added the link. StuartLondon (talk) 10:57, 15 June 2009 (UTC)Reply

"another account"

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"Another account has his corpse being thrown in the Seine, but recovered and buried later that night by his converts." Yes, quite another account indeed. The link to an on-line RC website is broken. This account, clearly catering to modern requirements for verisimilitude, will have an interesting history, if we can find citations for it. Where did this "other account" originate? A French Third Republic popularization is my guess.--Wetman (talk) 22:20, 17 December 2009 (UTC)Reply

Tagged with 'undue' July 2014

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As a reader, I came to this article and saw it has the 'undue' tag; added the 7th of July by someone at 76.20.47.0. Yet I do not see any discussion of this tag here on the talk page.

When the tag was added, 76.20.47.0 commented in the edit field: (i.e. the idea that this individual actually existed instead of simply being a legendary figure.)

I think the tag is unneeded, as there doesn't seem to be any controversy worthy of a tag. It seems more appropriate for someone concerned about this to add a paragraph or section to the article.

If no further clarification about the tag is forthcoming, I think it can be removed. Benthatsme (talk) 13:00, 10 July 2014 (UTC)Reply

Agree, text clearly indicates that much of the information is derived from tradition and legend; tag removed. (good catch.) Mannanan51 (talk) 17:46, 19 July 2014 (UTC)Reply
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Requested move 11 August 2020

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Denis moved to Saint Denis of Paris, and Denis (disambiguation) moved to Denis. I found no consensus on the "Saint DenisSaint Denis (disambiguation)" move, but no prejudice for anyone who may want to initiate a discussion to move Saint Denis as a stand-alone move request instead as part of a bundled request. (non-admin closure) Steel1943 (talk) 21:14, 24 August 2020 (UTC)Reply


– For most English speakers, "Denis" is not Wikipedia:COMMONNAME for the saint, and the saint is not Wikipedia:MAINTOPIC for "Denis". Many of the current redirects to "Saint Denis" should point to Saint Denis (disambiguation) after the move. jnestorius(talk) 14:29, 11 August 2020 (UTC)Reply


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 13 April 2022

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move. Discussion has died down after having been open for a month with one relisting. The majority of !votes favor the WP:COMMONNAME policy over the MOS:SAINTS guideline. Favonian (talk) 13:11, 13 May 2022 (UTC)Reply


Saint Denis of ParisDenis of Paris – Per the clergy guideline WP:NCWC that discourages the use of 'Saint' unless it is necessary and the only viable option for disambiguation. ~ Iskandar323 (talk) 19:12, 13 April 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 05:13, 25 April 2022 (UTC)Reply

  • Addendum The specifically relevant section of the guideline is MOS:SAINTS and I encourage all those voting to take the time to familiarize themselves with this if they are not already familiar, as well as to look at Category:Christian saints from the New Testament and see how consistently this guideline is applied. WP:COMMONNAME is not the overriding policy function for biographies of religious figures. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:04, 14 April 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • Support. In this case, the guideline applies. Srnec (talk) 02:36, 14 April 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose fails WP:COMMONNAME, as he is hardly ever called this. Johnbod (talk) 04:15, 14 April 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose. I agree with Johnbod. For example Saint Patrick is known as Saint Patrick, never referred to only as Patrick. Denisarona (talk) 08:52, 14 April 2022 (UTC)Reply
    MOS:SAINTS allows for some exceptions, especially where the name is such that 'Saint' is the only means of achieving disambiguation. But if you see the linked category in the addendum you will see that these exceptions are far from frequent, and wholly unnecessary in the case of 'Denis of Paris', who is completely recognizable and well differentiated from other entries by his 'of Paris' epithet. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:19, 14 April 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • Comment. The current title is "Saint Denis of Paris", which is less common than "Denis of Paris". See ngrams. Of course, the proposed title is much less common than "Saint Denis", but that is probably too ambiguous for this article. In any case, the proposed title is certainly viable for disambiguation in this case. The saint is strongly linked to Paris. Srnec (talk) 22:48, 14 April 2022 (UTC)Reply
    @Johnbod @Denisarona: Have you seen the Ngrams presented by @Srnec (and which I probably should have run in the first place). It shows that there is considerable use of "Denis of Paris" in prose above and beyond its use in conjunction with the Saint title. And it's not a particularly close run thing. Saint Denis of Paris is neither necessary for disambiguation nor the WP:COMMONNAME. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:49, 21 April 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • Weak Support. "Saint Denis" is a common term, largely because of the well-known Parisian suburb town and famous Basilica of Saint-Denis of that name. So I can understand the instinctive resistance - they seem to go together. If we're going to deduct "Saint" from "Saint Denis", then retaining the French spelling seems a bit denuded and awkward. (His name would properly be "Dionysius of Paris" - but that would probably fail the recognizability test). Besides MOS, converting to plain "Denis of Paris" could actually help disambiguate this article from the town and basilica.

Walrasiad (talk) 07:07, 25 April 2022 (UTC)Reply

  • Oppose terrible idea. "Denis of Paris": could be anyone; a writer, painter, medieval civil servant, Quasimodo's caretaker, etc., etc. Manannan67 (talk) 07:07, 26 April 2022 (UTC)Reply
    To assert that, you would have to provide an example of an alternative literary use of "Denis of Paris", which , I suspect, you will not find forthcoming. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:34, 26 April 2022 (UTC)Reply
    • Well no, I don't. "Denis of Paris" does absolutely nothing to inform the ordinary user who this guy is -and that's the point. Manannan67 (talk) 03:52, 27 April 2022 (UTC)Reply
      Well, no you don't, but without examples or sources, your point is moot/crap, because, short of any counter examples, 'Denis of Paris' is clearly the one and only named 'Denis of Paris', by that title, in literature. Perhaps you've missed the MOS:SAINTS guideline, or perhaps the broader point that biography article titles don't contain job titles. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:08, 27 April 2022 (UTC)Reply
      You evince an odd compulsion to debate every objection made to your proposal. Frankly, the idea is "crap" (your word). The ordinary user doesn't give a tinker's damn about mentions in literature, they just want to find the article as easily as possible, and Denis of Paris clearly doesn't do it. Manannan67 (talk) 02:37, 28 April 2022 (UTC)Reply
      Wikipedia has naming policies and guidelines precisely so that we aren't left guessing what 'ordinary users' think in the realm of opinion. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:21, 28 April 2022 (UTC)Reply
      "The word "Saint" should never be omitted if it is the only way of referring to the title in a recognizable way." (MOS) Manannan67 (talk) 16:03, 28 April 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • Support as Saint is not neutral, [[[MOS:SAINTS]]. --StellarNerd (talk) 03:45, 3 May 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose. Current title is more common and more recognisable than proposed title. POV as to whether or not he is a Saint (whatever that means) should not come into it at all... meaning it's not a consideration either way. My reading of WP:NCWC (to which the various MOS shortcuts all redirect) is that it supports use of Saint on this occasion, contrary to what is said above. Andrewa (talk) 20:50, 3 May 2022 (UTC)Reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.