Talk:Denis Napthine/Archive 1

Citation required for undermining claim

The following controversial text is unreferenced:
Throughout his time as Opposition Leader he was also constantly undermined by rivals within his own party room. The most visible dissident was Robert Doyle MP, Member for Malvern. Doyle was supported by sources aligned to a rival group seeking control of the State Party's Administrative committee, this group being closely aligned to the Federal Treasurer, Peter Costello MP, and his University friend Michael Kroger.
I don't object to controversial text, but because this makes claims about other people, it really should include a reference. Thanks, Lester 12:24, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Probable vandalism

Is it just me, or does this edit seem a little suspect? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.168.96.188 (talk) 05:33, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Jewish

• I have corrected Denis' religion to Jewish. I have had trouble finding a reference online but wikipedia states *that he is descended from Joseph Potaski who is Australias first Jew =) 144.137.9.157 (talk) 09:04, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

• Joseph Levy, transported to Sydney in 1788, seems to predate Potaski by 15 years[1]. Hack (talk) 04:00, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

• Just looked at this page for the first time and it struck me that Mr. Napthine's religious background appears in the first line of the article - as though it is a significant defining characteristic of him. I have no objection to his religious background being identified within the body of the article, at the appropriate place, but I'd much prefer that religion not be there on the first line of the article unless it is a defining characteristic of the individual. That's my 2 cents' worth. Please comment. I'm inclined to remove the word "Jewish" from the first line, but leave other references in the body of the article unchanged. Cheers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mimiselfani (talk • contribs) 09:25, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
• I understand that and it sounds reasonable, however I believe that being the first Jewish premier of Victoria makes his religion more significant and this more special, whereas Kennett, Brumby, Bracks, Baillieu etc were all part of the majority Anglo-Saxon Christian group in Australia and are far more common and less significant, in terms of religion. What do you think? =) 144.137.9.157 (talk) 09:39, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
• He identifies as Roman Catholic and has close relatives in the habit. If you are going to mention Jewish ancestry, I would suggest you have a good source directly mentioning him. Hack (talk) 09:46, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
• I was surprised to see the recent changes... but anywho, if you are going to claim he is Roman Catholic then you too need references. Wikipedia itself states that he is descended from Australias famous first Jew Joseph Potaski. You can look him up if you like. I will not add that he is Jewish but I'm sure that given his recent exposure more questions regarding his religion will come to light as will his religion, and then I will add the information with a relevant news article. Good day. 144.137.9.157 (talk) 09:53, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
• On second thoughts, no. Denis Napthine, if nothing else is atleast ethnically Jewish as he is descended from a Jew. Here is the reference on Joseph Potaskis page.[2] Here is another link that shows that the two are related.[3]This is acceptable to show that he is atleast ethnically Jewish in heritage, which is clearly relevant. What reasons do you have to censor this? 144.137.9.157 (talk) 10:00, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
• Both of those are Wikipedia mirror sites. The only reliable source linking the two appears to be the Potaski/McDonald book cited in the article. I would be interested to see exactly what it says. Hack (talk) 10:10, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
• Good for you. I have changed his religion on the page to unknown due to the ongoing discussions here.144.137.9.157 (talk) 10:13, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
• Hack, I own the book. Give me a second to dig it out and I'll let you know what it says. Jenks24 (talk) 10:15, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
• Thanks Jenks. @144.137.9.15 On the religion, he clearly identifies as Catholic. I am not doubting he may be Jewish by ethnicity/ancestry, I am just looking for something that explicitly says he is ethnically Jewish. Hack (talk) 10:22, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
• Where is the reference that he identifies as Roman Catholic? And isn't the fact that he's a descendant of a Jew explicit enough to show that he's ethnically Jewish?144.137.9.157 (talk) 10:26, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
• Just leafed through it, there's only 80 or so pages and most of them are family trees. There's no mention at all that Potaskie or any of his relatives were Jewish and it often mentions that he had a Catholic heritage/background (and all records of them in Australia have them being baptised and Catholic weddings). It does confirm Potaskie was a convict and was of Polish heritage, though. And also that Denis Napthine is descended from him. Jenks24 (talk) 10:31, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
• A few refs that show Napthine identifies and is identified religiously as Catholic.

• "Revelation of Denis". The Sunday Age. 5 August 2001. Denis Napthine, the first Roman Catholic leader of Victoria's Liberal Party
• "Pell weighs into Liberal preselection". The Age. 3 October 2000. Archbishop Pell has spoken to Victorian Opposition Leader Denis Napthine, who is also a conservative Catholic
• "United they stand, for once". The Age. 29 October 1999. Mr Bracks, Liberal leader Dr Napthine and National Party leader Mr McNamara were there to promote the yes case for the republic. And there was consensus among the three, which Dr Napthine described as the "Catholic conspiracy" (all are Catholic) that a future Australian president should be appointed by Parliament, not direct election.Hack (talk) 10:41, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

• The truth will come out. It doesn't matter whether or not whatever you just read fails to cite Joseph Potaski (In future maybe conduct your searches with correct name spelling) as a Jew because he was. And Denis Napthine is indisputably descended from him. If that doesn't make you Jewish then I don't know what does. Oh, aside from a few racist stereotypes maybe. I will wait for more information to come present on this matter. Thankyou. 144.137.9.157 (talk) 10:50, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

• If that doesn't make you Jewish then I don't know what does. Um, being descended from a Jew does not make you Jewish. Jewishness is passed down only in the female line. (Ezra 10:2-3, Talmud Bavli Kiddushin 66b, Shulchan Aruch EH 4:19).64.131.245.216 (talk) 20:05, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
• And "The truth will come out" has a somewhat unsettling feel to it. In any case , Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 05:23, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

• Is it at all possible in your mind for one to be a practicing catholic who is ethnically Jewish?144.137.9.157 (talk) 10:51, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
• Can you please provide a source that Potaski was Jewish? And just as an FYI, the book is titled A Story of the Potaskie/McDonald Family 1802–1987. It mentions that there were about six different variations of "Potaski" used in early records. Jenks24 (talk) 10:56, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Steve Bracks is not "part of the majority Anglo-Saxon Christian group in Australia". His ancestry is Lebanese. This highlights how UNimportant ancestry and religion are in Victoria. I don't know and I don't care what Napthine's religion and ethnicity are. Nor do most other Australians, which is what those politicians really are too. Don't go down the path of countries obsessed with such things as race and religion. HiLo48 (talk) 05:04, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Lebanese is his ancestral country of origin. Lebanese is hardly a... race, just a nation. It is inhabited by Arabs. Anywho clearly you are obsessed enough to know that Bracks is not anglo saxon. And I believe that many people would be interested to know that Denis Napthine is Jewish =) Barack Obama was the first African-American President and that was big news on that base fact, I believe that Denis Napthine being Jewish, if we can find a proper source I suppose (You all seem to ignore the Potaski connection), it would be information that would be in a reputable ENCYCLOPEDIA. Thankyou 144.137.9.157 (talk) 11:04, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Remembering something from a newspaper article I once read is NOT an obsession. Please apologise. HiLo48 (talk) 20:37, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

144.137.9.157, you're the one going on and on about Napthine's supposed Jewishness. Yet a single mention of Steve Bracks' Lebanese background is somehow an "obsession"?? Give us a break!! Have you actually read any of the responses to your earlier posts? Merely being descended from someone who was Jewish is NOT enough to make you a Jew. Jewishness is conveyed only through the female line. Pointing to descent from Potaski simply does not cut it. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 20:57, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Where is the evidence Potaski was Jewish? Hack (talk) 11:06, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

There isn't any. None. None of the detailed accounts of what is known about Potaski's life suggest that he was Jewish.Eregli bob (talk) 12:46, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Dr Napthine?

I see him being referred to as "Dr Napthine". But why? He's a veterinarian, and to my knowledge vets are not normally called "Doctor" in the same way human GPs are. Unless they have an actual doctorate. Napthine has Masters degrees in Vet Science and Business Administration, but no doctorates. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 22:20, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Many vets seem to be titled Doctor these days. The most obvious example is Hugh Wirth, President of the RSPCA in Victoria. Even our own article about him starts with the title "Dr", and his qualifications appear to be no more than than an undergraduate degree. HiLo48 (talk) 02:36, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

But there's no reason for the "Dr" to be used in this article. StAnselm (talk) 03:44, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. HiLo48 (talk) 04:56, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 20:58, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Not the first Catholic Premier of Victoria

I've just heard him referred to in a TV news report as "the first Catholic Premier of Victoria". That is absurd. I know of at least 3 before him: Steve Bracks (remember him?), Edmond Hogan and Bryan O'Loghlen, and I'm sure there would be others.

Just to forestall any attempts to get this so-called fact into the article. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 07:26, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

First Catholic Liberal Premier? Hack (talk) 07:45, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

That's much more believable. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 10:56, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

But, given the lack of interest in the fact among the general community, not very important. (I know it would have been once.) HiLo48 (talk) 22:03, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Well, it is was of sufficient interest to the journalist who wrote the story to even get it wrong (!). That tells me there are others who would think it's worth mentioning, if it were actually true, or if they think it's true. (And to give them their due, it would be remarkable if not a single one of his 46 predecessors had been Catholic.) -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 22:12, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

The claim of being first Catholic premier is mentioned here. You'd hope he didn't source the entire article from Wikipedia. Hack (talk) 00:19, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

No, that report said he's the first Catholic Liberal premier. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 10:55, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, it looks like I missed a word in my reply. Hack (talk) 10:59, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Napthine's (outdated) image

To the IPs and others - look. Veteran wikipedia editors have spent years looking for useable photos of politicians. We cannot use any copyrighted photos, especially official photos (without appropriate licensing from the Premier's department). Sometimes that means we have a massively outdated only-photo of a current Premier. The outdated photo is terrible as an only-photo, I agree. But it's the only one we're able to use that we're aware of. Please do not upload or try to defend uploaded images that are clearly copyrighted - official-looking, low-res, no image metadata. These will be removed. What it does often do though is encourage the subject to organise appropriate licensing of a better photo. The outdated photo isn't ideal, but we have little choice. Timeshift (talk) 02:20, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

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