Talk:Death of Salvador Allende

1

This article contains a section called 'Official version of the death' which (apart from being an ugly title) doesn't explain what is 'official' about it. Qwertyus 16:00, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I didn't write it, so I can't speak for authorial intent, but it is congruent with both the version put out by the perpetrators of the coup and with what is now generally accepted in Chile under a restored democracy. - Jmabel | Talk 02:10, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I wrote that originally, and agree with both Qwertyus (it is an ugly title and misleading also) and with Jmabel (it is both the version put out by the military government and the one currently accepted by the democratic government and taught at schools). Mel Romero 03:32, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

witnesses section

In the first sentence: "All sources seem to agree that there at least the following witnesses were present:" should read

• "All sources seem to agree that there were at least the following witnesses present", or
• "All sources seem to agree that at least the following witnesses present"
• ?

In the last section, following the bullet points, it reads, "Some sources missatribute these statements..."

• It's unclear what statements are being referred to. The statements of who was present, which are represented by the bullet points? Or perhaps the statements in the preceding "Official version" section?

Death of Salvador Allende#Witnesses

--baxrob 14:50, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

For user Baxrob, you're right, the sentence is not proper. I guess I need to polish more the text. I meant that a great number of sources pre-1990 attributed and based the "official version" on the statements of Dr. Paris, when in fact it was Dr. Guijon. Please, feel free to do any grammatical corrections that seem suitable to make the text clear and tighter. Mel Romero 03:32, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

POV on official version

User Moshe-paz has incorporated his own POV into the text, which since I have removed it, I feel the need to clarify my possition. He indicates:

• "Supporters of Pinochet agree that he committed suicide, in an attempt to absolve Pinochet of being the intellectual author of Allende's murder." - not only Pinochet's supporters claim suicide in this case, but Allende's own family have recognized several times that they are convinced that he took his own life.
• "But those who claim he was killed, point to the level of destruction that the Moneda Palace was subjected to within such a short period of time. They claim that among the ensuing, all engulfing fire, caused by an excessive air bombardment of such a small area, which charred the historical building, it would have been impossible for someone to have committed suicide, death via smoke inhalation would have been Allende's most probable cause of death." - Mmmmmm the destruction at La Moneda was never as extensive as that in Berlin during WW2, but no one is claiming that Hitler was murdered. The building was heavily affected in several areas, but was never charred.
• "The post-mortem done on the charred remains of Allende by a number of physician is also invalid given that it was carried out under the authority of the military junta that executed the coup." - again, a historical mistake. The first post-mortem was carried by the head of the Santiago Morgue (an independent doctor), and witnessed by the heads of the military medical services (and was properly documented.) A "second" post-mortem was carried after the restoration of democracy, when Allende was transferred from Viña del Mar to Santiago. Both arrived to the same exact results: he committed suicide. Another point to consider is that the remains were NOT charred, or affected by fire in any way, as was self-evident when the pics of the body in situ were finally published.
• "Subsequent lose and fragmented statements, of a highly inconsistent and contradictory nature, by a number of individuals (some who were in the Moneda Palace during the coup, most notably by Dr. Patricio Guijón) were never cross-examined by legal teams or experts in a trial hence serve no basis to make a reliable conclusion on Allende’s death." - The statements are in no way "lose and fragmented" but remarkably coherent and full for a historical event such as this. All the statements are also consistent with each other, and also share the fact that all the witnesses were oppossed to the military. If we needed to cross-examine witnesses for all major historical deaths, we surely could never arrive to any conclusion anywhere. Mel Romero 03:52, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
• "Salvador Allende was a doctor in medicine, and did hold the post of Minister of Health in 1938. As a doctor his vocation was to do everything in his power to save lives. Keeping this in mind, it is unlikely that he would take his own life. Moreover, it does not make sense that after his famouos last speech on Radio Magallenes, he would have taken his own life.[1][[File:<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/g1QJ-y_xUmk&hl=en_GB&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/g1QJ-y_xUmk&hl=en_GB&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>]] Doctor Salvador Allende Gossen would not turn a gun on himslef and cowardly take his own life. You, the wise reader, be the judge.Alfredoleonardo (talk) 05:43, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Salvador Allende template.jpg

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BetacommandBot 01:09, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

controversy section

please remove "fidel castro referred to it (suicide) as fact." if you read the quotation in the book (partly given in the footnote), you'll discover that it is only meant symbolically, not literally. He is not speaking about Chavez or Allende "killing" themselves, but about the importance of keeping an eye on the military (an action that could kill you), which he tells Chavez is crucial: "You have most of the Army on your side. Don't quit, don't resign."

I can't see how this should in any way mean Castro supports the suicide-side-of-things.-- ExpImp^talkcon 10:32, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

IN addition there should be some background here on the political climate in the country at the time of the witnesses giving reports. there was what is essentially a terror campaign against any and all who might say something against the government. everyone from student activists to political officers to professors were being tortured and dissapeared during the pinochet reign and it was only after his reign ended that they exhumed the corpse and autopsied it.

Odd use of "who" template

"However, few today seriously question that Allende did indeed shoot himself" is marked with the "who" template. I'm not sure what that template even means on that sentence. The alternative would be that no one questions that: obviously, some still do (we've had the occasional person drop by the main Allende article asserting that he was gunned down by those attacking La Moneda). - Jmabel | Talk 04:39, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, looking at the discussion above, User:Moshe-paz appears to believe just that. - Jmabel | Talk 04:41, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Castro quote on Allende

I removed this sentence from the article:

However by 2002, Castro had changed his opinion on Allende's death confiding that it may have been suicide.

with the reference:

In "Fidel Castro: o: biografía a dos voces (a two-voiced biography), pub. Debate Publishing House ISBN 0-307-37653-2, the Cuban president told Ignacio Ramonet that he told Hugo Chávez: "Don't kill yourself, Hugo. Don't do (sic) like Allende, who was a man alone. You have most of the Army on your side. Don't quit, don't resign." [2])

The original Spanish transcript of the article can be found here and does not bear out this translation. Castro says '¡No te inmoles, Hugo! ¡No hagas como Allende!' which means 'Do not immolate yourself, don't do what Allende did.' However, this does not appear to be a reference to suicide, due to Castro's response to the followup question:

• "¿Usted lo estaba alentando a resistir con las armas en la mano?" Did you tell him to resist with force?
• "No, al contrario. Eso fue lo que hizo Allende y lo pagó heroicamente con su vida." No, on the contrary. That is what Allende did, and he paid heroically with his life.

This is consistent with what Castro is quoted as saying in the previous part of the article, so the additional source is unnecessary. 186.105.90.120 (talk) 19:33, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

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Requested move 16 August 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (non-admin closure) Surachit (talk) 17:30, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

---

Death of Salvador Allende → Suicide of Salvador Allende – His official cause of death is a suicide. ColorfulSmoke (talk) 04:56, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Support - proposed move meets article naming convention criteria WP:DEATHS and suicide has been officially confirmed, as verified in reliable sources cited in article. IndigoBeach (talk) 13:38, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Oppose – it fails the first step of the naming convention criteria WP:DEATHS; the common way this is referred to in English is "Death of Salvador Allende" and not "Suicide of Salvador Allende". Dentren | ^Talk 20:21, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose WP:DEATHS is not an official policy. Although it has been credited as a suicide, there is reasonable doubt about the circumstances. Additionally, it does sound more neutral to call it "death of" instead of "suicide of" Allende. --Bedivere (talk) 20:28, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Oppose "Suicide of" is afaik used for topics where the article is primary relevant related to it being a suicide (for example cases of victims of bullying that became bigger media stories). In this case the death itself is what the article (and sources) is primary about and the investigation about the cause of death is explained. I think we also generally should be careful about placing "suicide" into titles (see journalism codes that we may consider). --Casra (talk) 19:38, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.