Talk:David W. Patten

Section deleted -- seeking source

Actually, there is some support -- just not cited here. The false affidavit was a significant legal factor in the dissention during this period. I'll try and track down the source before reinserting. WBardwin 23:50, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

"Battle may have been triggered by dissension within the Mormon leadership and the swearing of a false affidavit by Apostles Thomas B. Marsh and Orson Hyde."

This sequence of events is pretty well documented and comes from the Thomas B. Marsh article. The affidavit's content was known before the battle, added to the panic in northwestern Missouri and triggered the sending of the state militia unit. WBardwin 01:29, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

• 19 October 1838, Thomas B. Marsh and fellow apostle Orson Hyde left the association of the Church.
• 24 October 1838, Marsh drafted and signed a legal affidavit against Joseph Smith on , which Hyde also signed. It addressed the organization of the Danites, conflicts in Daviess County, and rumors about future Mormon actions. He stated his opinion that Joseph Smith planned "to take the State, & he professes to his people to intend taking the U.S. & ultimately the whole world" (Document, p. 57).
• October 1838, because a Mormon attack was believed imminent, a unit of the state militia from Ray County was dispatched to patrol the border between Ray and Mormon Caldwell County to the north.
• October 25, 1838, reports reached Mormons in Far West that this state militia unit was a "mob" and had kidnapped several Mormons. The Mormons formed an armed rescue party and attacked the militia in what became known as the Battle of Crooked River.

Cain story

I've restored the little story about Patten meeting Cain. It was deleted by an editor as "irrelevant", but I'm not so sure it isn't relevant. Outside of WP, I didn't know a lot about Patten, but I did know that (1) he was killed in the Battle of Crooked River, and (2) that he said he met Cain. The story has been recounted in a number of modern LDS Church sources, including Miracle of Forgiveness by S. W. Kimball. I think it's relevant and I see no better article than this one to include it in. We certainly don't need a separate article about David W. Patten's encounter with Cain. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 03:47, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi I'm the editor. I thought that the section was irrelevant because 1) it's a biography and more importantly, 2) the quote doesn't even mention Cain! I understand that it's a little relevant, but not to a biography! In addition, it's totally irrelevant where you insist on putting it, after his martyrdom in the battle of crooked river! I'm just trying to improve this article and get it up to FA status, but I can't do that if you replace all of my edits (like, for example, wikifying all of the dates, which doesn't agree with WP:MOS#Wikilinks, Wikipedia:Only make links that are relevant to the context#What generally should not be linked, Wikipedia:Only make links that are relevant to the context#Dates, and Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive D6#Again calling for date linking to be deprecated. I really hope we can work together on this article (my last project team, Odwalla, consisted of me, myself, and I). I won't try and delete the cain section until I hear back from you. :) Intothewoods29 (talk) 04:02, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Just a note on the dates—full dates need to be wikified to activate the date-preference function for all users. If the dates are not wikified, the date preference function won't operate. In my opinion, it is (or should be) a kind of exception to the rule that we don't link irrelevant words, etc. Obviously, this has been the subject of some debate. I'm not convinced, however, that it's been resolved in favor of removing all wikilinks on (full) dates. I stand open to correction though—perhaps you could direct me to where in the MOS this is now spelled out. Ah, now deprecated. I see. Ignore this—that's fine.

I'm not sure why the Cain story doesn't belong in a biography article. If it's notable, then it belongs somewhere. Where else would you suggest? It's either got to go in (1) it's own article; (2) this article; or (3) the article about Cain and Abel. Of those three options, I think this one's clearly the most appropriate. There's nothing that says certain notable anecdotes can't be included in a biographical article. On the contrary, is that not where they belong?

I'm not "insisting" the Cain story goes where it is now—it's kind of been put there by default. I wasn't the original editor who placed it there. As for it not mentioning Cain, that's interesting—perhaps the other sources that have interpreted this as being Cain should be added. I'd have to have another look at the original source of the Cain story—it's possible the excerpt doesn't include the name "Cain" but that it is mentioned elsewhere in the account.

Incidentally, why the deletion of (1) citation needed tags; (2) explanatory footnotes; and (3) wiki formatting on putting birth and death dates in parentheses after name ? Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 04:08, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

OOOPS! I found a source by an apostle that called patten a martyr and I was going to cite it, but I got distracted and instead removed the tag that I put there! haha oops. As for the footnote, it's going into the reflist... If it's okay with you I'd like to put the info in the footnote into the article, where it'll be of a lot more use. As for the dates, I changed it around, but I looked at other biographies that are FAs, and they have the dates, so that was right. I removed all of the date wikilinks, and I think common place names (like Indiana and Tennessee) aren't supposed to be wikilinked either, so eventually I'll get rid of those. As for the Cain Story, if you want to research and cite sources for that, I'll research his biography. It'll be a contest! haha. It'll be nice to work with someone on an article for once, although it'll be weird explaining all my mistakes. Intothewoods29 (talk) 04:24, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

No problems—thanks. I'll try to do some research and edit up the Cain story some more. My sense is that it probably doesn't need to include the long quote that is there now. A few sentences about his reported experience and how it's been treated since his death should suffice. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 04:37, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Kool. Intothewoods29 (talk) 04:39, 16 September 2008 (UTC) :)

I've revised the section on the Cain story—took out the quote and just related it in a few sentences. I actually found out that the story is mentioned in the articles Cain and Abel and Mormon folklore, so I'm not as convinced that it has to be here as I otherwise might have been. What I've included here is pretty much taken from Cain and Abel. I still think it's appropriate to have here, given it's modern significance. As for the source and identity of Cain, the story is related second-hand in a letter by Abraham O. Smoot, which is then quoted in the biography by Wilson, which is then quoted in the book by Kimball. The letter by Smoot makes it clear the "creature" identified himself as Cain: that part just wasn't included in the quote that was there before. I'm still looking for perhaps one more reference for a final comment as to the significance of this story in the modern LDS Church/Mormon folklore, which will probably be just a sentence. There's plenty of blog posts commenting on it, but we need something better than that. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 01:37, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Done now—I found a source for connecting the Patten story with Bigfoot, which seems to be the basic Mormon folkloric take on this whole thing ... Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 01:53, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Church of Christ (Latter Day Saints)

The reason this church is referred to in the reference to Patten being baptised in 1832 rather than The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is b/c the latter did not exist by that name in 1832. This is fairly standard naming formatting across Latter Day Saint articles. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 04:20, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Okay I didn't know that. Thanks. Intothewoods29 (talk) 04:39, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Theresa, New York

The article mentions that Patten lived for a time in Theresa, in "southeastern" New York. Theresa is a town in northern New York. Which is correct -- the name of the town, or the region? Don Argus jr (talk) 01:52, 25 October 2008 (UTC)) 01:51, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

The town is definately the right name... the source I used said it was near some waterfall or something, and I checked the articles on Theresa and the info seemed to match up. The location as to New York may be wrong, I'm not sure but I'll check it out. Intothewoods29 (talk) 07:32, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

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