Talk:David Bukay

Sources

This is a biography, and must be edited according to WP:BLP. An extremist partisan website, such as 'Occupation magazine' can't be used as a source. Please find a WP:RS that describes his views as extreme if you want to include this in the article, especially when he denies making the statement attributed to him by the extremist partisan website. Isarig 23:58, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Come on Isarig, you don't want me to describe Bukay's views as "extreme" even when I cite sources. So how do you expect to get away with describing Occupation Magazine as "extreme partisan". It is in fact pretty much in the mainstream of the Israeli anti-occupation movement. That may make it partisan, but neither extreme, nor unreliable. In any case, the article I quote is taken from the Chronicle of Higher Education [1]; but this is a subscription-only site, to which I do not have access, and I suspect most Wikipedia readers will not either.

To describe Bukay's views as extreme, shows that even his critics recognise that the positions he allegedly puts forward are far from the mainstream Israeli right. By rejecting this label, you almost imply that his views are indeed common currenvcy on the Israeli right. Surely you don't think that? RolandR 00:13, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

User:Jayjg has been removing from this article quotations from the Arab Association for Human Rights Report of June 2005, on the spurious grounds that this is "plagiarism". The passage starts "The Arab Association for Human Rights alleged", and I have not at any time attempted to present their views or statements as my own. His latest argument is "directly copying text from a source without enclosing it in quotations is plagiarism".

The full quotation is:

"Dr. David Bukai, Professor of Middle East Studies at Haifa University, made comments several times during the first semester of the 2004-2005 academic year that included racist statements against Arabs. He stated that terror is the problem of the Arab, and that the Prophet Mohammed was the first terrorist. Dr. Bukai also commented that 'We should shoot terrorists in the head in front of their families' by way of a deterrence, and 'destroy a whole house, with everyone in it,' in order to get rid of one wanted person. On another occasion, Dr. Bukai stated that 'the Arabs are just alcohol and sex.' He also commented that 'the Arabs are stupid and have contributed nothing to humanity.'"

I have summarised this as:

"The Arab Association for Human Rights alleged that in the 2004-2005 University of Haifa semester Bukay made a number of offensive and anti-Arab remarks in his lectures, including 'we should shoot terrorists in the head in front of their families' as a deterrent and 'destroy a whole house, with everyone in it,' in order to get rid of one wanted person, that 'the Arabs are just alcohol and sex', and that 'the Arabs are stupid and have contributed nothing to humanity.'"

This is legitimate, accurate, and fully cited. Just what is the problem here?--RolandR 01:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Need for protection

The following copied from here

As I predicted when protection was denied yesterday, this page has today been attacked by two further sockpuppets of the Runtshit vandal. Please protect it, to prevent the constant abuse of this page for pursuing a racist campaign. RolandR (talk) 15:03, 19 November 2008 (UTC).RolandR (talk) 15:03, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Am I reading correctly that the quotes in the article attributed to him were later determined to have been fabricated? If so, why are the quotes in the article? This doesn't appear to be vandalism to me. It appears to be a content dispute. Both versions give the same information, from what I can tell, but your version includes some nasty quotes, apparently determined to have not been made by him, which is completely inappropriate for a BLP. لennavecia 16:14, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

On the contrary, all the reliable sources indeed attribute the offensive statements to Bukay. The only source cited for the claim that Bukay did not make the statements is Bukay himself, in a right-wing magazine which he edits. The repeated POV edit is always accompanied by an arguably racist attack on the people who reported the statements. And it is apparent from the editing pattern and modus operandi that the repeated reversion is being carried out by yet another sockpuppet of the Runtshit vandal, who has made several thousand abusive edits on Wikipedia attacking left-wing Israelis and Jews, and defending ultra right-wing Israelis. Please read the sources, and the history of vandalism on this page, and then reconsider. Thank you. RolandR (talk) 17:10, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I'll read all of it now. لennavecia 19:42, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Quotes are sourced to a dead link that when retrieved through archive leads to a download for an executable file. I'm not downloading an executable file, perhaps others are comfortable with that. So, with that, the quotes are currently unsourced. لennavecia 20:44, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The above copy/pasted from RFPP. Discussion below continued here.

Also, you say that only Bukay himself refutes the claim, but the article says that the University rector conducted his own investigation and concluded that the quotes were manipulated together and taken out of context, no? So, as it currently is, in your version, a redlink organization (not saying it's not notable, I don't know, but from the reader's perspective, it's a redlink) alleged that he said these things. The reference does not work, and both Bukay and the University rector refute it, for which there are references. لennavecia 21:03, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I've now linked to the web archive version of Bukay's article. There seems tio be something wrong with the site, which worked earlier today, and still works intermittently. So this is no longer redlinked, and it can be seen that these are indeed Bukay's own words, in his own magazine.

Your summary of the rector's findings is misleading. According to rhe Haaretz article cited, "the rector …concluded that the remarks attributed to Bukay on the Internet and in the media 'were not made in the way they were quoted and parts of sentences that were uttered in different contexts were yoked together by manipulation'…It should be noted that (the rector) questioned (the student) only about the headline in Nana ("shoot the Arabs in the head") and not about the other comments attributed to Bukay. Ben Artzi stated that he would make it clear to Bukay that 'it is important to moderate statements on sensitive topics and take into account that certain things are liable to be taken out of their context.' However, he declined to tell Haaretz which things had been 'taken out of context'." So the rector in fact did not even investigate the alleged remarks, but the reporting of them in a secondary source (not cited in Wikipedia). But he nevertheless warned Bukay to mind his language. This is certainly not the claimed ringing endorsement of Bukay which he himself claims.

The edit which this chain sockpuppet keeps introducing removes the offensive statements by Bukay (which, as noted above, were not investigated by the rector), and describes them as "a baseless smear invented by Arab students". This is both racist, and unsupported by any sources except Bukay's own word. And the fact that the same edit is constantly being made by proven sockpuppets of a notorious Wikipedia vandal, with no attempt to discuss or justify this, should itself raise questions about the good faith of this editor and the acceptability of these edits. RolandR (talk) 22:49, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Okay. The redlink I refer to is the Arab Association for Human Rights. It doesn't exist, and I'm not saying it's not notable, because I haven't looked into it, but I did note that their website is down. The dead link is the one tagged as a dead link. It's used to source the alleged quotes. Now, speaking on the quotes, Wikipedia is based on verifiability, not truth. As far as your overview of the events with the rector's investigation, or lack thereof, that's not what the source says. Your version of the article is a BLP violation. I've removed the entire section until we can find working links to reliable sources and figure out the best way to present this information. لennavecia 13:39, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Alright, I just read over the sources. Here's what we need:

• A source to replace the dead link, which is where the original allegations were made by the HRA.
• A brief explanation of what the HRA is, considering we don't have an article.
• An explanation that the accusations came from two Arab student and were refuted by not only Bukay, but almost all of the other students.
• Explain that the rector found that the quotes in the media "were not made in the way they were quoted and parts of sentences that were uttered in different contexts were yoked together by manipulation."
• It should be noted that the student most vocal in his complaints was found to have been disruptive from his first day in the course and was eventually expelled from it.

In the April 2005 source, it states that the police had not yet opened an investigation on Bukay, but that they were still discussing Bukay's complaints against the student. We need to attempt to find some followups for this. The source makes clear that Bukay received a great deal of support from his other students—both current and former—and that the university did not hand out any disciplinary action against Bukay, and the reliability of the source (the student in question) was thoroughly questioned, thus we cannot include these quotes. We can, however, detail the comments that were confirmed by the other students, such as his note of how many Arabs have gotten Nobel Prizes compared to Jews, and explain in general terms the accusations made by the students. لennavecia 14:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

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