Talk:Dave Matthews Band/Archive 1

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DMB Related Sites Link Order

This is a reference page for DMB, not a chronology. External sites should be linked and ordered based on their current importance. I've moved Almanac and Dreaming Tree to the top, then re-ordered the fan sites to better reflect how someone interested in learning about the band should proceed.

DMB Fansites

Latest comment: 16 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion

I think the fansites linkings need to go. Most bands of any level of fame don't have fansites in the wikipedia entries. --[signature missing]

Well, DMB isn't most bands. I run one of those fansites, so my judgment is questionable, but the band is rooted in their online fan base, a group to which they credit their popularity. It think it's an entirely reasonable inclusion, so long as the list is kept at a decently small number. --WaldoJ 16:20, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with Waldo. Message boards are a large part of many fans experience with the band. Also, there really is no reason to continually delete TDC.org. If WDS is there and other even worse ones TDC must as it is represents many of the fans who have followed dmbml, the bridge, and ufck. These are often the fans who have been following the band for the longest period of time and feed the other message boards.

I think it should be cut way down. WP:EL states *one* fan site would be okay. I think we could reasonably expand that to maybe two or three, but not this many. As I start, I removed the duplicate entrise for nancies and the official site. --Bill.matthews 20:54, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad you did so -- I hadn't noticed that nancies.org (my site) was listed twice. There's certainly no need for that.--WaldoJ 21:02, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Well for starters, Warehouse is the most successful fansite ever developed. As a matter of fact the manager of the band sold it for millions of dollars. Then there is Nancies.org which has won numerous awards for its popularity and usefulness. And then there is antsmarching.org which gives every single dave fan every single show he has every played. so I guess it is important to have more than one :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.231.132.86 (talk) 17:31, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Lick Global Warming link

I took out the Lick Global Warming link because of its total irrelevance to the Dave Matthews Band - 68.239.156.128 00:22, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I put it back. The Dave Matthews Band plays a large role in that campaign. TrbleClef ♮ (talk) 00:29, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Jam band

NEW POST:

THIS IS A RESPONSE TO THE "DISCUSSION" ON THE WIKIPEDIA EXPLANATION OF THE TERM "JAM BAND" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jam_band)...

(Type "jam band" into the Wikipedia search engine and click on the "discussion link")

I am posting it here because this is a related space and I am hoping to get feedback.

_____________________________________________________________

Hey everyone, this is my first time posting on Wikipedia, so I apologize in advance if this article is not formatted in the proper manner. Also, most of this post was taken from an essay that I am working on for my Social and Political Philosophy class, so I would greatly appreciate any feedback (including counter-arguments and suggestions) that you might have! If you have something to say, respond to this post!

Sincerely,

Laura, a college student and music fan :)

My Argument: THE DAVE MATTHEWS BAND IS INDEED A "JAM" BAND, in the best sense of the term!!!

I have to say that I think that you guys are using an excessively narrow and reductive definition of "jam band" when you assert that the Dave Matthews Band is not, in fact, part of the jam movement.

First, I feel that the most fundamental and essential element of the "jam band" definition is the incorporation of "freestyle" musical improvisation into live shows and albums, usually in the form of extended instrumental jams. Anyone who has ever attended a DMB show knows that this extended live improvisation is THE CENTRAL COMPONENT of a Dave Matthews show! Regarding length of time, some of these jams extend well over the 20-minute. Regarding structure and composition, most of these jams feature complex, multi-layered structures in which all of the musicians play an important improvisational role. Indeed, the improvisation that characterizes jam bands implies the involvement of the entire band, not simply the band's drummer and guitarist, for example. I must say that the DMB displays this instrumental inclusivity to an impressive degree. Almost all of the DMB's live jams showcase the talents of each band member, and usually, each member offers solo jams numerous times throughout each show. These jams feature the bluesy saxophone work of Leroi Moore, the folky-fiddle sound of violinist Boyd Tinsley, the bass of Stephan Lessard, the drums of Carter Beauford, the truly haunting vocals (and the admittedly mediocre guitar playing) of Dave Matthews, and the stellar and complex riffing of guitarist Tim Reynolds, whose singular, frenetic style is reminiscent of Leo Kottke's playing. Furthermore, regarding the corporate aspect of music marketing, the DMB has consitently included these improvisational jams on their live albums. For evidence, please note the double-live albums "Red Rocks" and "Luther College," both of which feature numerous extended improvisational jams that include impressive solos by each musican.

Secondly, I feel that the next most important characteristic of a jam band (second only to extended jamming) is the embracing and fusing of various musical styles, genres, and influences into an organic and original sound. I use the term "organic eclecticism" to describe this necessary feature of a jam band. Organic elcecticism begins with a respect for the artistic value of all musical genres. Next, it implies a "fusion" of several diverse genres of music and several different styles of instrumentation (hence the term "eclectic"). Finally, it implies that the final musical output will be a uniquely original and entirely non-derivative sound (thus the term "organic"). Indeed, the jam band movement grew out of the most celebrated "fusion band" of all time: the venerable Grateful Dead, whose music was defined by a fusion of folk, rock, blues, bluegrass, and jazz (AND, in their later years, reggae). Likewise, the DMB definitely exhibits an eclectic fusion of various genres of music (blues, jazz, world, American folk, African folk) and numerous styles of instrumentation (for example, note the variety of styles that Boyd Tinsley applies to the violin). Perhaps most importantly, the DMB has fused these diverse influences together into a distinctive and organic sound that is all their own! For example, the 7-minute studio version of the song "Crush" has been noted as one of the best examples of "blues-jazz-pop" fusion in recent years; this song features incredible work on the saxophone by legendary blues man Leroi Moore. Also, the DMB have fused many bluegrass influences into their sound; note the frenetic, folksy fiddling of violinist Boyd Tinsley on the early DMB albums, especiall "Under the Table"; also note the use of bluegrass great Bela Fleck as a guest mandolinist on various tracks of the DMB album "Before These Crowded Streets". Perhaps most famously, the DMB has incorporated South African folk influences into much of their music. (Dave Matthews was born, and spent his early years, in South Africa.) This African "global" influence can be heard on the songs "Pantala Naga Pampa" and "Stay," and in much of Carter Beauford's drumming. Also, much like Jethro Tull, the Dave Matthews Band has drawn on classical music to enhance the uniqueness of their sound. Their violinist is the classically trained Boyd Tinsley, and several of their songs feature amazing work by the violists from the Kronos Quartet (especially "Stone," which begins with a 1-minute violion solo by one of the members of Kronos).

I hope that I have shown that the DMB exhibits the two most essential elements of a so-called "jam band":

1) improvisational, extended, live jamming... AND...

2) eclectic fusion of diverse genres and influences into an organic sound (this second element is more difficult to describe).

Other jam band characteristics that DMB exhibits but that I don't have time to describe are as follows:

3) The DMB maintains an incessant (or at least extremely frequent) touring schedule!

4) The DMB built up its fan base from the years 1990 to 1994 by CONSTANTLY touring and by encouraging fans to tape and trade their live shows!

5) Ahhh, this brings me to the fan base of DMB. Although a band can not be defined solely by its fans, I feel that the core fans of a band speak volumes about the band's origins and true character. Indeed, the hard-core, long-term fans of DMB have long exhibited a passion for tracking and reviewing the live jams of DMB shows (please see the website www.antsmarching.org). Also, these long-term fans helped to build the DMB phenomenon in the early 1990s by recording, trading, and selling live DMB shows. I feel that the characteristics of the DMB long-term fan base display the characteristics of all true jam band fans.

6) Just as a band can not be defined entirely by its fan base, so it can not be defined solely by its touring partners. However, the DMB has consistently sought out touring partners and musical collaborators that share the DMB's commitment to creating unique, eclectic music and delivering equally unique, often improvised live performances. These artists and bands read like a Who's Who of the jam movement: Phish, Trey Anastasio, Widespead Panic, Eric Clapton, Leo Kottke, Stringcheese Incident, Disco Biscuits, etc, etc. Moreover, the following "jammy" artists and groups have directly contributed to the studio albums of the DMB: Bela Fleck, Trey Anastasio, and Orchestra Baobob (of South Africa). Finally, several up-and-coming jam bands have received increased exposure because they have officially opened for the DMB on their frequent tours.

7) As many observers have noted, the jam movement of the late 1980s, 1990s, and early 2000s has recalled many elements of the revolutionary period of the late 1960s and early 1970s. One of the most important of these elements is a dedicated commitment to environmental and social progressivism. The DMB, and Dave Matthews in particular, strongly exhibit this social and environmental consciousness. For example, the band's charity, Bama Works, works to preserve Amazonian rainforests and to improve the public school systems of several American inner-cities. (The recent "bus-dropping" controversy that transpired in Chicago was the work of a disgruntled tour bus driver employed by the DMB; he has since been fired and is currently being sued by the DMB. I do not feel that this event reflects negatively upon the DMB's commitment to environmental preservation.)

8) I feel compelled to address the always provocative issue of drug use within the jam band community. Let me leave you with a quote by Dave Matthews himself, in which he satires the conservative policies and the relentlessly one-sided anti-drug propaganda of the Reagan era:

"Instead of Just Say No, how about Just Say Yes, just once, and then decide for yourself!"

Thus, I hope that I have made a substantial argument for the permanent inclusion of the DMB into the jam band movement. Personally, I would argue that the DMB has been a major force and a crucual influence in the jam movement, in terms of the music they play, the characterics of their live performances, and the culture with which they identify.

However, I am not so deluded as to set the DMB on the same high plateau as Widespread Panic and Phish, but I would probably place them on the same respectable level as Stringcheese Incident, Gov't Mule, moe., Umphrey's McGee, etc, in terms of influence on jam music and importance within the jam movement.

_____________________________________________________________________

I am currently working on a 15-page essay for a Social and Political Philosophy course on the intersecting subjects of the jam band movement, with a focus on the ways in which the DMB illustrates and/or violates the primary characteristics of the jam movement and community.

Most of this Wikipedia post has been taken directly from my essay... Thankfully, the essay is not due until mid-May... Thus, as I mentioned above, I would GREATLY APPRECIATE any comments, counterarguments, or suggestions that you may have regarding the above writing sample!

In my essay, I will be exploring the characteristics, the community, and the social, political, and economic implications of the jam band movement. The essay will cover the following topics: the music itself; the live shows; the emphasis on improvisational performance; the influence of the Grateful Dead; the influence of several forms of American folk, especially jazz and blues; the question of whether the term "jam band" is essentially reductive; the economic implications of online music-swapping; the internal culture of the jam band community (including the bands themselves, the fans, the online traders, etc); the divisions within the community; the question of whether the jam band phenomenon can be classified as a "musical-social movement"; the jam movement's influence on American culture and art; the political and social implications of the jam movement; the movement's similarity to the musical-social movements of the late 60s and early 70s; the question of whether musical trends, phenomenons, and/or movements can spawn or at least influence full-fledged social movements; etc.

I will be using the DMB as a recurring example in the exploration of several of these topics. For example, I will explore WHY and HOW the DMB has become a divisive issue within the jam community, and the results of this divisiveness. Why are so many people so vehemently opposed to the DMB? Is this opposition rooted in the DMB's increasing popularity in mainstream America? How have the anti-commercial, anti-materialistic values of the jam community impacted those jam bands who have become commercially successful (even when those bands have NOT deliberately courted such mainstream popularity)? What does this say about the values of the jam community? What does it mean to "sell out" in terms of music, art, and politics?

Disagree, You seem to have addressed everything above with the exception of the music itself. You also seem confused and contrived in several instances. Why do you see those who deny DMB as being a jam band as people being opposed to the band? I'll think you'll find that if you talk to some of the more active members of the DMB community at some of the larger message boards that the general consensus is that DMB are not a jam band. This is not because they're not active members of the jam band community, and that they're music isn't derived from elements of jam band music, but because they're studio and live music simply doesn't have the make up of a jam band. To answer the points you lay out above;

1) They do 'jam' and improvise live. However, this jamming is almost always contained within the confines of a particular melody or riff, usually played by Dave. The improvisation in Tripping Billies, for example, often features Boyd playing solos around a similar melody (compare the album solo with the Gorge 2002 live CD solo) whilst Dave plays the same riff underneath. The soloing, whilst truly improvisational, does not break out structurally from the song itself, which is an important distinction between a solo part of a song, and a true jam band jam. DMB are a band who have a strong rhythm section, a guitarist who writes distinctive riffs with a unique acoustic style, and two soloists who "fill in the gaps" so to speak; if the two soloists had guitars, these would be all the elements of a staple rock band. I think because they are a violinist and a saxophonist, people then make the leap to them being a jam band, which they are not. Dave Matthews has stated himself that he doesn't feel the band are a jam band, as can be referenced in the book "Jam Bands" by Dean Budnick. I do not believe the Red Rocks '95 album is a truly good example of Dave Matthews Band as a jam band anyway, and does nothing more than exemplify the points I've made above. And as for Live at Luther College, this is Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds on acoustic guitar, and not only is Tim not a member of DMB but I don't think the solo's on L@LC show anything more than the fact that Tim is a great guitarist.

The rest of your points do nothing to single out DMB as a jam band. Combining musical styles and grueling tour schedules, whilst admirable and indeed important elements of a good live musical act, don't describe a jam band. Developing a good grassroots fan base, performing with musical guests, dedicating much of your time to important charitable works and recreational drug usage do nothing to describe DMB as anything more than a band in its most generic possible sense. Whilst these are all elements that jam bands often share in common, they are also all elements that all bands, and indeed the majority, could share in common.

I like to think of DMB's unique musical style and development, along with Dave's unquestionable ability to write truly great lyrics, don't describe DMB as being a jam band but single them out as being truly unique from all other bands.

Ukdmbfan 23:50, 28 April 2006

db.etree.org

Latest comment: 18 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

I don't think that the db.etree.org link should be included. This website is not specific to the DMB -- it covers live shows of any and all artists. Jpers36 14:06, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

The link included is indeed specific to the DMB, as it provides information regarding the live shows for all released DMB pulls. The description could use some fine-tuning, however. Bbatsell 04:13, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Ok -- I hadn't noticed that the newest link was different from the one I'd removed. Jpers36 04:35, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Electric guitars

Latest comment: 16 years ago4 comments4 people in discussion

The part that mentions the "Everyday" album says that it was the first time Dave used an electric guitar in studio. I think this should be changed to "the first time Dave used an electric BARITONE guitar in studio" because the "Crash" album features plenty of electric guitar work in numbers such as "Two Step", "Too Much", "#41", "Cry Freedom" and "Tripping Billies".

While that can/should be edited for clarity, the electric guitar work on the previous albums was done by Tim Reynolds. Bbatsell 17:54, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but not all of it. Also in sites that list Dave's gear there's always a couple of standard electric guitars, which is probably what he used in "Crash".

Until Everyday, Dave never used electric guitars in the studio. He did use one LIVE on the song Crash and a few others prior to Everyday, however, but never in the studio. All of the electric guitar that you hear on Crash and BTCS is Tim Reynolds, and what sounds like electric guitar on the Lillywhite version of the song Busted Stuff is Dave's acoustic run through some effects. Dave DOES play electric on Everyday, Busted Stuff, and Stand Up. dancheatham

This is not strictly true. For much of the UTTAD, Crash and BTCS years, Dave used Gibson Chet Atkins SST's for both live and studio work. Contrary to what some believe, SST's are in fact full electric guitars (they're sometimes incorrectly noted as being semi-acoustic), as they are solid-body and have piezo pickups on the bridge. Ukdmbfan 17:05, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Even if I consider the Gibson Chet Atkins as an acoustic guitar (I had a similar guitar and the sound and playability is 100% acoustic w/ pickups), he did use electric guitars on the Crash album. #41 is a great example, as you can hear his electric guitar and Tim's electric guitar, each on one side of the stereo picture. Two Step is one that I'm pretty sure Dave is on the electric guitar while Tim plays an acoustic (best heard on the intro). Max Mismetti 14:46, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Dave did not record in the studio with the Gibson Chet Atkins. While that was his touring guitar, he used Martin guitars in the studio to record UTTAD, Crash, and BTCS. All other electric guitar work was done by Tim Reynolds. This has been documented in many interviews.Ericwormann (talk) 15:07, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

cult following

Latest comment: 16 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Dave Matthews band, I believe began achieving it's cult folowing by playing at fraternity houses. One specifically was at the University of Alabama. I can remember my older cusin letting me hear a bootleg tape of DMB at one of his frat houses. This was prior to their release of Remember Two Things. 207.157.121.50 00:53, 21 October 2005 (UTC)mightyafrowhitey

I moved this into its own topic as it doesn't appear to have anything to do with the discussion over Dave's use of electric guitars. Ukdmbfan 17:14, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

added to Frat Rock category. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.203.233.53 (talk) 01:20, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

NPOV

Latest comment: 18 years ago6 comments5 people in discussion

This phrase "would be regarded as the band's greatest studio effort" is NOT npov. This opinion should be directly credited to someone reputable (ie - Rolling Stone, or allmusic), rephrased to reflect that it is just an opinion, or erased completely--Esprit15d 18:36, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

So credit it to me. (I run nancies.org, the DMB fan site.) It'd be a shame to take out -- it's a fact, and an important one. Perhaps it should just be changed to "is widely-regarded as the band's best studio effort?"--WaldoJ 04:17, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

WaldoJ - saying that an album "would be regarded as the band's greatest studio effort" is not a fact. It's an opinion, which is by definition not a NPOV. The sentence needs to be changed. To convey the same general feeling, it could refer to well-known reviewers who laud it as a their best studio effort, for example. -- Hux 16:28, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and removed the reference. If someone can find a reputable source to back up the information, then go ahead and revert and add the citation. Until then, keep the article as NPOV as possible. --Zybergoat 00:34, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Additional npov issues. This whole paragraph needs to be npov'd: "Arguments have raged throughout both the Dave Matthews Band's fanbase and online communities dedicated to discussing bands such as Phish and the Grateful Dead as to whether or not they are a true jam band. It's perhaps more accurate to state that the band's music and that of the many bands influenced by it is a breakaway sub-genre of jam band. While Dave Matthews Band are unquestionably the driving influence behind this sub-genre as it exists today, the style arguably owes its roots to Widespread Panic of Athens, Georgia. The Dave Matthews Band is taper-friendly." I think it is fair to say DMB had a lot to do with establishing what is now recognized as a 1990s version of jambands, but this paragrah is worded like it was written from a fan, and not like an encyclopedia article (and I'm a HUGE DMB fan). Also, that Widespread panic statment needs to be referenced or defended. --Esprit15d 18:41, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

For the record I moved the "jam band or no" statement mentioned in the article into its own section, as it was floating between discussion of the band's time on the road/album releases. It's also probably a significant enough issue to be given its own small independant section. Bombfish 20:05, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

It says an "ailing" dave matthews, talking about the West Palm Beach show this year. That seems to be an opinion, I don't think that specific point has anything to do with the concert and should be removed.

On the map: Under the Table and Dreaming vs. Crash

I would argue that Under the Table and Dreaming is what put Dave Matthews on the map. It was triple platinum before Crash was put out, and "What Would You Say" had been in the top 10 and "Ants Marching" had been in the top 40. (See: http://www.rockonthenet.com/artists-m/davematthewsband_main.htm). While the nominations for the Grammy's wouldn't come until Crash, I would still argue that Under the Table and Dreaming is what put them on the map.

Olin

Discography and Live Trax

Latest comment: 18 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

As per a recent edit, under the Discography heading: "DO NOT add the Live Trax albums here. They are on the discography page"

What the hell? All of the other albums are on the discography page; why special treatment for the Live Trax albums? I'm reverting the edit; the Live Trax albums are live DMB shows, which means they should be listed under "Live albums". If a good reason can be given, hey, great, I'll certainly leave it alone. I'm just reverting until I know what that reason is. EVula 06:18, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Because they aren't available through normal channels. At the most, we should make a note that they exist, but refer to the discography page. And in a couple years, there will be a large number of these albums that will overwhelm the "official" discography. So I prefer to keep them seperate. I should have clarified that view before making the edit. Adm58 16:03, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay, that makes a fair amount of sense to me. Compromise: Under the "Live albums" heading, I put "There are also five volumes in the band's "Live Trax" series; see the band's discography for more information." That (a) mentions the albums' existence, and (b) won't overload the article once the band has 73 Live Trax albums (like it'll matter; after buying 73 albums, none of us will be able to afford internet connections). EVula 16:13, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Looks good. Adm58 16:19, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Trivia: Dave Matthews African-American?

Latest comment: 15 years ago7 comments4 people in discussion

This statement in the trivia section seems misleading. The term African-American is widely understood to mean a black person born in the United States. To be sure I wasn't just assuming that, I checked the entry here on Wikipedia and, sure enough, it talks almost exclusively about black Americans... If the entry was changed to correct this, it would end up saying something about how three members of the band are African American, which I don't think would serve any special purpose, so I propose removing the whole reference from this section. --Daniel Villalobos 15:09, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

It now says they are of African descent instead of African-Americans. --72.45.26.29 02:38, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

If I were to mention Dave Matthews' African roots, I would probably refer to him as "South African born," "African-born white," or something. He is clearly not "African American" in the usual connotation it has in the U.S. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gravitywheel (talk • contribs) 01:12, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but Wiki is international... not just Americancentric. Qb | ^{your 2 cents} 13:17, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Alright, point taken. However, Matthews and his band are based in the United States, so that counts for something, doesn't it? Is there a place in the world where a person of a background such as that of Dave Matthews would be considered "African American?" I don't mean to be confrontational. I'm genuinely asking. Gravitywheel (talk) 01:45, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, I do. Theres currently a tiff going on at the dave article regarding this exact thing. One person who has his panties in a twist is edit warring all over it. Qb | ^{your 2 cents} 09:41, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

You did not answer my question. Gravitywheel (talk) 16:44, 25 August 2008 (UTC)