Talk:Danish nobility

English definitions

I have added English definitions to the Danish nobility page on the basis of the following correspondence:

AMALIENBORG, 27 November 2007 H.A. Nr. 622/07-0190

Dear Sir,

In reply to your mail of 14 November 2007 regarding the English meaning and definitions of two Danish titles: Lensbaron and Lensgreve, I can inform you that the translation is Feudal Baron and Feudal Count. Feudal Count and Feudal Baron are the definitions of the highest noble rank in Denmark. The rank was introduced in 1671 by a statement of creating counties and baronies. A Feudal Count is a count who is enfeoffed with a county by the Danish king.

Yours sincerely

Chr. Eugen-Olsen Master of Ceremonies —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.73.7.84 (talk) 00:05, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Private correspondence is not considered a reliable source on Wikipedia. That is especially so in a case like this when a member of the Danish court, rather than an English lexicograhper, gives an answer about English language usage. There is no such title or term in English as "Feudal Count". FactStraight (talk) 02:14, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi. I have told you before and I will tell you again: Feudal or fief baron is a perfectly neutral and descriptive term—and related to the English feudal baron. — Breadbasket 02:17, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Reliable source? (Wikipedians have no way of verifying the actuality or accuracy of correspondence from a courtier to a private individual. Where has the letter been published so that it can be independently viewed and verified?) FactStraight (talk) 02:19, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

One should first of all recognise the basic difference between normative and descriptive terms. If using feudal count normatively, one introduces a new word alias a neologism. If using feudal count descriptively, it is to be considered as a neutral, direct translation. Otherwise, one may rather consider ‘feudal’ as an adjective attached to ‘count’ rather than ‘feudal count’ as a term per se; e.g. ‘nice car’, ‘big house’, ‘feudal count’, ‘titular baron’. — Breadbasket 02:42, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

The problem is that you keep 1. capitalizing the phrase "Feudal Count", which means that you are treating it as a proper noun; and 2. "Feudal Count" cannot be used to translate a "title", i.e. Lensgreve, any more than one can translate "Markgraf" as "Count of the Mark" nowadays and claim that "of the Mark" is merely a modifier of the noun "Count". "Fief Count" is even worse: it is completely meaningless in English. I am well aware that these phrases have been intruded as translations of titles elsewhere online before they appeared in Wikipedia. If you don't want these phrases treated as forbidden neologisms, please don't use them that way. FactStraight (talk) 06:19, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Could you tell where I capitalise ‘feudal count’? Otherwise, ‘feudal baron’ and ‘feudal count’ are no titles, but rather indications of their rank within the estate of barons and the estate of counts; feudal barons and feudal counts bear the title of baron and count, respectively. — Breadbasket 11:19, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

I apologize for misstating the capitalisation. In a list of titles, use of "feudal/fief" is inappropriate since it is not part of the title -- nor does it convey what I think you want to say since "fief" is not, in English, a synonym of fideicommis and we don't translate, e.g., German, French or Portuguese countships attached to a fideicommis, majorat or morgado as anything other than "Count". But it's fine to use "feudal count" in the prose description outside of the boxes. Indeed, I agree that some distinction between Lensgreve and Greve should be pointed out to readers, but unfortunately there simply is no English translation for that distinction -- and any title which is made to look like a distinction smacks of neologism. As for the Holstein dukes, as the article notes, "Lensgreve and Lensgrevinde are the highest ranks in Denmark's present nobility..." The title of "Duke" is still vested in the Glücksburg branch of the House of Oldenburg, of which Queen Margrethe II of Denmark, Harald V of Norway, Constantine II of Greece and Charles, Prince of Wales are cadets: it is a dynastic title (section 1 of the Gotha and the Handbuch des Adels, Furstliche Hauser), not a noble one, i.e. inheritance of it can be and has been forfeited due to non-dynastic marriage -- which does not happen to ordinary "noble" titles. If we want to show a Danish, uniquely noble duke, why not use a portrait of a member of the Decaze family? FactStraight (talk) 22:06, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Newly created peers

Does/Has the Danish monarchy grant new titles in the modern era? Are they hereditary? Is there a 'life peerage' as in England?♦Drachenfyre♦·Talk 09:13, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure, but I believe titles of nobility are only granted now to members of the Royal Family. On April 2008 for example, Queen Margrethe conferred the hereditary title of Count of Monpezat on both her sons. The right to use the title is extended to all legitimate descendants of the princes (both men and women) in male line. The Queen also bestowed upon her former daughter-in-law (Princess Alexandra) the personal and non-hereditary title of Countess of Frederiksborg. 161.24.19.112 (talk) 17:49, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

There are no "peerages" in Scandinavia at all, and that term should not be used, specifically because it fails to acknowledge or encompass persons who are untitled nobility -- a class which exists in Denmark and Sweden. There are also hereditary titles of nobility in Denmark and Sweden (but no longer in Norway) which continue to descend according to their original patents, a few of these descend by masculine primogeniture (e.g., Lensgreve), but most descend to all legitimate members of the family in the male-line, another reason these titles should not be referred to as "peerages": all sons and daughters of a count (Greve) are counts/countesses (Greve, Komtesse), for instance. The Danish sovereign can still grant nobililty or hereditary titles, but the government no longer authorizes such grants except, as noted above, for persons related to the Royal Family. Unfortunately, such titles are promulgated by press release -- no letters patent are issued and no ceremony occurs any more. FactStraight (talk) 02:13, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Outside of the royal family the last ennoblement took place in 1903 and the last naturalization of a foreign noble family in 1913. Very few people were ennobled past 1840, about half of them adopted children of noble families. The monarch still retains the right to ennoble anyone she choses, but in practice it's highly unlikely a non-royal will ever be ennobled.--Batmacumba (talk) 20:03, 8 September 2019 (UTC)