Talk:Dan Vogel

Sources

I added a few. I removed the "sources needed" banner, even though some more sources could be added. There is nothing contentious in the biography, certainly nothing libelous. He identifies as a naturalist in the preface/intro to Making of a Prophet, I just don't have the book on me. The summary of the book is spot-on, although unsourced. The one thing I would like to fine is a source saying he resigned from the church. I think it's best not to make unsourced assertions about someone's religious beliefs or affiliations. Carneadiiz (talk) 19:06, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

External links modified

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"receiving the future" - ??

"Vogel has also edited volumes skeptical of the possibility of receiving the future through the word of God."

What is this sentence supposed to mean? --91.34.46.73 (talk) 20:27, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

No idea! I've removed it. It's unfortunate that it sat around for so long. Beorhtwulf (talk) 16:05, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Inclusion of "How to Win with Women" in works list is disputed, unsourced/poorly sourced, and disparaging to the subject

Is the 1983 *How to Win with Women*, listed in the article's *Works* section, really written by the same Dan Vogel who is the subject of this article? There are quite a lot of "Dan Vogel"s out there & the subject matter is pretty dramatically different from the rest of his work.

I can't see any indication *How to Win with Women* was written by the Dan Vogel who is the subject of this article. It is listed by Amazon along with other works by "Dan Vogel" but Amazon commonly links together authors who happen to have the same name, so this is really no proof.

Looking at the history page, it looks like the information about this publication was added by a non-logged in user with IP address 98.216.152.212 and this is the only edit ever made by this user. That indicates to me that it is possibly low quality. I'm going to remove the reference. If anyone has actual evidence this book was written by the subject of this article they can add it back. Even if the book is written by Dan Vogel the subject of this article, the subject matter of the books is different enough from the topics of the other publications listed and the topics of the biography that little or nothing is lost by omitting this work. On the other hand, if this book is by a different Dan Vogel then including it on this list of publications gives a very inaccurate picture of the work of the subject of this article. Bhugh (talk) 05:58, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

28 June 2020 an anonymous user reverted the edit outlined above, that removes the book "How to Win with Women" from the publications list. [This anonymous author] has made only two edits on wikipedia, both related to reverting my earlier edit removing the reference to "How to Win with Women" in this article.

I have removed "How to Win with Women" from the publications list again, and suggest treating as vandalism any attempt to re-add this work to the publications list without inclusion of a reliable, independent, published source for the claim that this book is written by the historian Dan Vogel who is the subject of this article.

The reasons for this are detailed below:

The anonymous editor who reverted the edit noted that "Google books identifies Dan Vogel as the author of this book as well as historical books on Mormonism."

The reference to the "Google Books" listing is not by any means evidence that "How to Win with Women" is written by the Dan Vogel who is subject of this article. A quick search of the name "Dan Vogel" at whitepages.com turns up around 75 people named "Dan Vogel" or "Daniel Vogel" in the United States. The author of "How to Win with Women" could be any one of the dozens and dozens of people named "Dan Vogel" in the U.S. or around the world.

Like Amazon books, Google books simply joins together authors who happen to share the same name whether or not they are actually the same author.

Additionally, Dan Vogel (historian) is a somewhat controversial historian and author in the area of Mormon history. Repeated anonymous edits to this article that clearly seem intended to cast the (living) subject of the article in a negative light--and with no actual reference or support for the information provided--must be considered in light of Wikipedia:BLD. In that light, this edit and now revert adding this publication are verging on vandalism even if done in good faith, and well over the line into vandalism if done in bad faith.

In particular, including listing of this spurious work violates the policy outlined for Biographies of Living Persons:

"Such material requires a high degree of sensitivity, and must adhere strictly to all applicable laws in the United States, to this policy, and to Wikipedia's three core content policies: Neutral point of view (NPOV), Verifiability (V), No original research (NOR)"

In fact, adding "How to Win with Women" into the article violates all three of these policies:

• Neutral point of view (NPOV) - including this work is a transparent attempt to discredit Vogel as a serious historian and author. Even if the work is by the subject of this article (which is not proven) it is irrelevant to his historical work, which is the subject of this article.
• Verifiability - No proof has been offered that this work is actually written by the subject of this article. This fact has been disputed and at this point verifiability means citing a reliable, independent, published source for the claim--not simply pointing to Amazon, Google Books, or other some similar automated online book/author listing.
• No original research - at this point we need a reliable, independent, published source for this claim, not simply a bit of googling by an anonymous editor--which clearly falls under the "original research" category.

In short, inclusion of "How to Win with Women" in this article's works list is disputed, unsourced/poorly sourced, and disparaging to the subject. It should not even be considered for inclusion unless very strong reliable, independent, published sourcing is available. And even then inclusion should be very, very carefully considered as the work seems irrelevant to the subject of the article and inclusion of the work may be an attempt by opponents to disparage a controversial researcher and author.

Bhugh (talk) 07:23, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

UPDATE October 2021: At 10:36, 28 September 2021‎ anonymous editor 2601:18c:4303:d490:f556:7d9c:7a06:ac33 "Undid revision 1014634054 by Bhugh"

The reason given by editor 2601:18c:4303:d490:f556:7d9c:7a06:ac33 was:

*The book “How to win with women: a guide to meeting and attracting today’s woman” is most certainly authored by the same Dan Vogel who wrote historical books about Mormonism. He is listed as the same author on Amazon, Goodreads, Thriftbooks, and many other book sources.*

As I outlined above, this is grossly insufficient evidence to substantiate this claim. Moreover, Vogel is a somewhat controversial author among some groups, and some of those groups are known to attack opponents by systematically denigrating or mocking them.

This is, again, an anonymous editor - this time with no edits whatsoever except for this one.

It is clear at this point that these repeated reverts by anonymous editors represent a pattern of denigration and harassment in a Biography of a Living Person. Any such reverts or edits should be fixed immediately and the perpetrators reported as vandals.

Bhugh (talk) 08:36, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Dan Vogel (the subject of this Wikipedia article) confirms that the book “How to win with women" is by a different person of the same name, in this YouTube broadcast starting at 1:56:

"For the record, this is a different Dan Vogel, correct?"

Dan Vogel: "Yes."

Bhugh (talk) 22:06, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

IMDB Page Removed

The IMDB page *Dan Vogel at IMDb https://www.imdb.com/name/nm5632964/?ref_=ttfc_fc_cl_t119 was linked on this page. However, the "Dan Vogel" who appeared in the episode of the TV Series "Conspiracy" about the Oklahoma City bombings is an ex-FBI official of that name who was born in a different year and has a different middle initial than the subject of this article. See https://newsok.com/article/2684675/local-fbi-spokesman-quietly-retires-murrah-blast-topped-agents-25-year-career For that reason, I removed the IMDB link in this article. Bhugh (talk) 06:13, 7 December 2018 (UTC)