Talk:Dún Laoghaire–Rathdown

Official name

I have moved this article to "Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown" as this is the official name, in English, of this administrative county as defined in the Local Government (Dublin) Act, 1993 (Section 9) which created this previously unexistant region (no fadas or spaces between slashes). Djegan 23:00, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

This decision, of the Oireachtas, was confirmed by the Local Government Act, 2001 (Part 1). Djegan 19:58, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Another simple and common sense reason as to why "Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown" is not the English name is that if it was then it why would we bother with an Irish one at all, viz "Dún Laoghaire–Ráth an Dúin"? We could simply meet half-way with the wrong one which has both Irish ("Dún Laoghaire") and English ("Rathdown") integrated into a hybrid erroneous name. Djegan 22:33, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

The official name on the county council website is Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council (see page title).--Filastin (talk) 13:45, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

It is important to bear in mind this article is about the county, as distinct from the council. Djegan (talk) 14:08, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

It's important though to notice that the council is the official governmental website of the county.--Filastin (talk) 16:57, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

As the article mentions, although the council has since changed its corporate branding to spell the name "Dún Laoghaire" correctly (and I do consider the use of "Dun Laoghaire" in legislation to have been somewhat ignorant), the legal name of the county remains unchanged. --Kwekubo (talk) 23:43, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia often uses the common name of places, hence Dingle rather than the official name, why different here, especially as the fada was left out by mistake presumably? 86.45.13.73 (talk) 19:23, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Good question. No idea...but one must allow for that fact that many of the Irl Ptoj members are id***s! Sarah777 (talk) 00:09, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps, this article should be moved to Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown per common usage? It seems strange that some editors were insisting on the official name while admitting that the official name was a mistake. That's taking pedantry to a whole new level! Snappy (talk) 11:48, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Folks look at the act for a start, also this. Whilst you may find it easier to make personal attacks on users (and share memories of bad experiences on wikipedia) it is clear that Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown is the anglicised form of Dún Laoghaire-Ráth an Dúin. Why would one have 'Dún Laoghaire-Ráth an Dúin' (Irish) and 'Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown' (some weird Irish-English mish-mash mixed up name)? 'Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown' makes more sense for the latter. The article is about the county, not the council who have it wrong (having said that if the council wish to use 'Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council' thats their business). Move the article if you wish, if just to prove that you are wrong, but the reference does not support it. Djegan (talk)

Somethings haven't changed, almost 7 years later you're still linking Oireachtas acts! As has been pointed out, that's probably an error and anyway common usage trumps legal name as in Dingle. Also, you anglicised name theory make no sense, why would they use Dun Laoghaire instead of Dun leary to be truly anglicised. I think the County Council have it right and since the council administers the county area, then the county name should follow. Snappy (talk) 17:21, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Remember this that the muppets that renamed Dingle to 'An Daingean' / 'Daingean Uí Chúis' (take your pick because you can never have enough choice in things that don't matter) are also the same muppets who bankrupted the Republic of Ireland and committed economic treason on the people of Ireland. Whilst people of Ireland have to emigrate (or be silly enough to stay in Ireland and pay taxes to pay off French / German banks at their leisure) the polical class who got them in the situation are the same people talking about restoring the Irish language. Shame on you, and shame on me. Yes somethings never change - pure and uttter folly. Djegan (talk) 18:59, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

True but anyway, its only a fada, and I'm not that bothered about it really. Snappy (talk) 20:18, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

I'll have to go with DJ on this - the Law trumps those who presume to know what common usage is every time. Laurel Lodged (talk) 20:32, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Really? So you'll be supporting moving Republic of Ireland to the lawful name, known internationally (except under UK law) as "Ireland"? And what about the whole Londonderry/Derry saga? Just asking - if the Law really does "trump" common usage... --HighKing (talk) 00:34, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

No need to change the name. It's Ireland in the Constitution and no statute law can conflict with that. Happy for it to remain Ireland. Republic is merely a description, not a name. Laurel Lodged (talk) 08:16, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

So presumably when the law is an ass, that makes you one too. Snappy (talk) 20:33, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Fiat justitia ruat caelum. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:22, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree with HighKing, what an absurd position to take, common sense always prevails. Snappy (talk) 06:56, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Let us move it and show what an illiterate bunch we are - because there is nothing more sensible in combining an Irish language word 'Dún Laoghaire' with an anglicised word such as 'Rathdown'. Roll on progress - because most people don't know the difference (and those who do are clearly wrong and need to be though a lesson because of the whole Republic of Ireland fiasco). Djegan (talk) 08:33, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Is there a law against combining an Irish and English word in a name? Can you link that statute from the acts of the Oireachtas, please? 'Dun Laoghaire' (without fada) is NOT the anglicised version of it; Dunleery is. Dun Laoghaire is a misspelling of Dún Laoghaire.

Can you actually disprove what I am saying? It is all well and good saying that 'Dun Laoghaire' is not / was not intended as an anglicised word and various other claims. I have provided two sources to back up my claim that Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown is authoritive by linking to principal acts which define it. Can you show that Dunleery / Dun leary (ideally for one of them, but I will accept for both) is the (or the only) English spelling? Can you? Djegan (talk) 22:44, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

The County Council officially uses Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council as its name, irrespective of the Act of the Oireachtas. The Council administers the County, (two sides of the same coin, can't have one without the other), so the County is therefore Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, per common usage, and as in Dingle, common usage trumps legal name. Snappy (talk) 18:07, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Didn't think so (from my previous question). Your whole arguement can be turned on its head; the county is more than just a council, it is a place, hence the council should bear in mind that they are not an end in themselves. Dingle also follows WP:ENGLISH; stop inventing / perpetuating Irish-English mixed names and incorrect grammer. This is the English wikipedia, WP:IMOS. If in doubt leave it out. Djegan (talk) 22:35, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm not inventing anything, the name of the town is Dún Laoghaire, the council calls itself Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, these are facts. You whole argument is based on saying that Dun Laoghaire is an anglicised version of Dún Laoghaire, which is clearly nonsense. Snappy (talk) 06:33, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

There is an article about the council at Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council - this article is about the county, not the council. There is a difference. I have supplied two authoritive references to support 'Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown', and WP:IMOS. There is no 'ú' in English, and never has been. This is the English language. Case closed. Djegan (talk) 09:21, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

The case is not closed and you don't get to decide when it is. Besides your repetition of the bleeding obvious, like "This is the English language, This is the English wikipedia There is no 'ú' in English", you seemed to have missed the blindingly obvious that Wikipedia now has one article at Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council and another at Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown, though they both refer to the same related objects. Its bizarre and illogical, no matter how many acts of the Oireachtas you quote. Snappy (talk) 19:00, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

English Name: Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown, Irish Name: Dún Laoghaire-Ráth an Dúin: [Government Reform Act 2014] (schedule 5). Please provide references for the anglicised spellings you have given.

Commonly this would clearly be used with the fada. Official names are not all what Wiki is about. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.1.172.163 (talk) 13:02, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Here is more evidence that the official name of the county is Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown. The source is a statute of the Oireachtas. The Electoral (Amendment) Act 2009 defines the constituency of Dún Laoghaire as: "Dún Laoghaire In the county of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown the electoral divisions of: Ballybrack, ...". It doesn't get more official than that, its the law of the land. Based on this evidence, I will propose that the article be moved. Snappy (talk) 19:57, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

RIGHT! It defines the constituency of 'Dún Laoghaire'. WRONG! It does not define the county of 'Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown', but just mentions it. I have already given sources for 'Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown' and am not going to rehash my arguement because your bored and sore. Moving this would be an oxymoron. Djegan (talk) 21:20, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

WRONG! RIGHT! Calm down, dear! Btw, I am neither bored nor sore. The Oireachtas refers to the county in a statute as Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, therefore that must be the official name. DLR's website says "Home - Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council". So officially and in common usage its name is Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown. Snappy (talk) 20:22, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Fada is also used more recently: [(Amendment) (Dáil Constituencies) Act 2017]

A legal name for Dingle is Dingle; it is now and always has been a very poor analogy to draw.

Letters addressed to "Dunleary, Co. Dublin" are still being delivered in 2021. "Dún Laoghaire" was adopted in 1921 to annoy and bewilder tourists from Britain.78.17.30.241 (talk) 12:55, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Rathdown

What is Rathdown anyway? Morwen - Talk 16:07, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

As far as I understand Rathdown is the west side of the county, historically I can find some references to a poor law union and barony. Two of the best maps of Dublin I have at present this one (c. 800KB) and the Discovery Series Sheet 50 (1:50,000 scale) do not mark it; or at least significantly. The naming of Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown will remain one of the greatest mysteries in modern Ireland, not least for being the longest county name of Ireland. Djegan 19:21, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

List of Irish Local Government Areas 1900 - 1921 has Rathdown No. 1 and No 2. rural districts (in Dublin and some other county), which would have been the former PLU/sanitary district. Strange. Morwen - Talk 22:34, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Rathdown was an old land division, a Barony in the southern part of the original County Dublin (in the period when Dublin went from beyond Balbriggan to near Arklow (which was in Carlow then). It was split into two Half-Baronies when County Wicklow was eventually formed (last of the 32) in the early 1600's, and continued in various roles, as noted above. As to why it was used in the naming of the new county, hard to say, but I did hear it mentioned in those years that it was to avoid giving just the name of one constituent town to the whole area, which included quite a bit of the rural then, and at the same time, there was no way Dun L. Borough was going into the new county without its name being retained. 83.250.96.225 (talk) 12:54, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

If you look here [1], find the county name of Wicklow, follow north through "Newcastle" on the coast, you will see the two occurences of "Half-Rathdown" - one in Dublin, one in Wicklow. All this came from the same period which left Ballymore Eustace, for example, in an island of Dublin far south of the main county, until the 1830's, a chunk of Kerry inside Cork, part of Offaly in Kildare, etc. 83.250.96.225 (talk) 12:58, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

The whole "Rathdown" thing is bizarre; nobody uses the term and nobody knows where "Rathdown" is. I thought Wiki was supposed to reflect common usage? When people are moving Gaeltacht villages to their English (unofficial but common) names that is the reason cited. Why is this place named for it's totally unused "official" title? Sarah777 (talk) 21:52, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Incorrect reference to County Dublin

There is one error and one ambiguous if not misleading statement in the following two sentences: "The four areas (Dublin City and the three counties established in 1994) collectively comprise the geographic county of Dublin. This county, which had been created following the Norman invasion of Ireland, was abolished as an administrative area by the 1993 Act. "

The error is that the county abolished as an administrative area by the 1993 Act was County Dublin, the administrative county which was divided into the three new counties. This administrative county did not include Dublin County Borough/Dublin City, and never had included it since the establishment of the current local government system under the Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1898.

The other problem is the reference to "the geographic county of Dublin". As far as I can tell, this term is an invention of whoever inserted it; certainly no source is provided for it. The term 'County Dublin' is indeed still used, but in no less than three different senses: that of the entire historical county (but when did that last have any legal function?); that of the county, as opposed to the city - i.e. identical to the former administrative county; and that of the postal area of County Dublin, which is all of the historical county not covered by the numerical Dublin postcodes.

Anyway, since my attempt to solve the problem by simply eliminating the inaccurate elements was reverted, I have attempted to correct the inaccuracy, but this is obviously more complicated. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 23:31, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

No idea where the term "the geographic county of Dublin" came from. You are quite correct that the county borough/city of Dublin was not in County Dublin from 1899. In fact it was a "county of itself" from 1548. Just had a little search of the Irish Statute Book and County Dublin (or the County of Dublin) still has a legal existence in terms of court districts:

Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2008 [2] "the city of Dublin and the counties of Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown, Fingal and South Dublin shall be regarded as a single county, and a reference to the county of Dublin shall include the city of Dublin and the counties of Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown, Fingal and South Dublin"

It's a fiddly one to get right technically and make readily intelligible to the general reader. Lozleader (talk) 12:42, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Point taken. I've amended the section to take these comments on board. However, I'm not so sure that the 4 areas were ever called the "county". It's possible that the city was always separate. It's also possible that it only became separate at a later date. Laurel Lodged (talk) 19:49, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the Civil Law Act, the important point here is that the Act says, "For the purposes of this section". In other words, it has no reality outside the technical exigencies of that section. Consider the 2001 Act which created the Mid-East Region by combing counties Meath, Kildare and Wicklow. One would never say that this resulted in the creation of "County Meath-Kildare-Wicklow". Laurel Lodged (talk) 19:56, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm still slightly uncertain about the sentence that runs "While this county was created following the Norman invasion of Ireland, it is unclear whether the city was included in the entity at the time of creation or if it instead enjoyed the status of an independent county borough." Is it really unclear in a general sense (i.e. historians throw up their hands in dismay when asked about it), or is it simply that those of us editing this article haven't yet managed to establish the correct answer? If the latter, it should perhaps be rephrased to reflect what we do know. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 20:39, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

I'd say "both". In Rumsfeld parlance, it's a "known unknown". Laurel Lodged (talk) 20:46, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

County DLR or just DLR?

Is it common usage or just OR to state "In Ireland, the usage of the word county nearly always comes before rather than after the county name; thus "County Clare" in Ireland as opposed to "Clare County" in Michigan, US. The exception to this norm occurs in the case of those counties created after 1994 which drop the word county entirely; thus "Dún Laoghaire–Rathdown" as opposed to "County Dún Laoghaire–Rathdown"."? Laurel Lodged (talk) 15:06, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

See discussion at Talk:Counties_of_Ireland#Style_for_counties_created_after_1997 Snappy (talk) 15:34, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Population and source 2016 or 2011?

The population is given according to the 2016 census, but the source given is that of the 2011 census. --Wanfried-Dublin (talk) 10:18, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

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