Talk:Czesław Mączyński

Removal of information from reliable source

Source: Fink, Carole (200). Defending the Rights of Others: The Great Powers, the Jews, and International Minority Protection, 1878-1938. Cambridge University Press. Link: [1]. Cambridge University Press is reliable; author is a professor of history at Ohio State University, obtained her Ph.D. at Yale. Reliable. Removed text matches what reliable source states. Please refrain from removal of reliable text without discussion. We can RfC this if you'd like.Faustian (talk) 06:02, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

• I agree to WP:RfC, but the more proper at this stage is Wikipedia:Third opinion. Poeticbent talk 06:09, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

And yet you continued to revert the referenced information without discussion. The part you removed stated: "Maczynski played a role in the Lwow pogrom of 1918.... Mączyński issued inflammatory proclamations, using what has been described as "medieval terminology," of supposed acts of Jewish treachery against Polish troops. He claimed, for example, that Jews had attacked Poles with axes. " Original source (Carole Fink) stated [2]: ""Maczynski made an inflammatory proclamation, in almost medieval terminology, the Jews' act of treachery in ambushing harried Polish soldiers, attacking patrols with axes, and pouring hot water."Faustian (talk) 06:52, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

You also made this reversion, with a false statement in the edit summary: [3]. Edit summary claimed "do not remove because citation does not support what your claim." Dubious tag added to " In 1922 he was elected as Deputy to the first Polish parliament (Sejm) as member of the right-wing party". Reference stated [4] pg. 12, footnote: "Maczynski was elected to the Polish Sejm as a member of the right-wing Christian Front." So - clear addition of dubious tag based on falsehood in the edit summary.Faustian (talk) 07:02, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Let me offer my 3O. I think Faustian is right that the source is reliable. We may discuss to what degree describing this in detail up to quoting him about the axes is WP:UNDUE, but overall I am leaning towards supporting including this detail. I do note that Polish wiki seems to not even mention anything about a pogrom... But I found Kwartalnik historii żydów. Instytut. 2004. p. 354., quote: " Kapitan Czesław Mączyński, o którym wspomniał Rataj, był działaczem Narodowej Demokracji oraz szefem Naczelnej Komendy. Historycy polscy w dużej mierze właśnie jego obarczają odpowiedzialnością za pogrom, choć taka interpretacja wydarzeń jest mocno uproszczona - jeden antysemita w Wojsku Polskim nie doprowadziłby do podobnej tragedii." I think there's therefore a consensus among most historians (probably outside endecja far-righters apologetics) that CM was one of the primary people responsible for that event (I went ahead and added this ref/note on p wiki. I'll let you guys add it here).

Regarding "Chrześcijański Związek Jedności Narodowej", a google search through Polish sources confirms it is usually seen as right-wing or at best, right-center wing (google Books for ""Chrześcijański Związek Jedności Narodowej" + prawicowe / prawica / centrowe. Please ping me if any counter-arguments are presented. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:48, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your input, Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus!Faustian (talk) 00:44, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Additions November 25

I am re-adding the removed referenced text. I am also adding a summary of the inflammatory note. The appeal itself stated: "There were instances reported of shooting from deep concealment, throwing pots of boiling water but also axes at the army patrols, etc. ...Nevertheless, there's a serious responsibility on the part of the entire Jewish community to stop these elements among their own coreligionists who act in a way that suggests a complete lack of care for the impending catastrophe which could affect all Jewish citizens." So the pamphlet Maczynski had distributed, has false claims of Jews throwing axes and boiling water on Poles, holds the Jewish community collectively responsible for these false acts, and threatens the Jewish community with "catastrophe" for these false acts. This supports Carole Fink's statement that I am adding. And, it will be noted in the article.Faustian (talk) 17:21, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

150 victims or 150 killed?

The article currently refers to an estimated 150 victims, including at least 73 killed and at least 372 seriously wounded. It's possible that this comes from an 150 killed or missing presumed dead, but the above implies at least 445 victims, probably more when we include those less seriously wounded, violated, homeless, &c. 138.88.18.245 (talk) 18:57, 10 June 2020 (UTC)