Talk:Crom (fictional deity)

Pagan deity

I have an issue with this article. Crom was a real Pagan deity, Crom Cruich or Crom of the Mound. I don't have enough information to edit the article, but there are strong links with Ireland, and, if I remember correctly with an existing geographical feature from which the name "of the mound" is derived!

Jason

The article mentions that Howard's Crom was inspired by Crom Cruich. When Robert Howard created the fictional Hyborian Age, it was stated that the land of Cimmeria was inspired by Ireland and Britain while under Celtic control, even though the land sounds more like some part of ancient Scandanavia to me. Odin's Beard

Also, if you will take the pain to look, you'll discover that the historical Crom Cruach does have his own page. I knew what I was doing when I created this one. Svartalf 17:32, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I find it amusing that Crom is marked as a fictional deity. Fictional as opposed to what? Factual? There is as much evidence for Crom as there is for any other deity. -PJP

Fictional as in, mentioned in and imagined for fiction, as opposed to worshipped by actual people. This is not the place to discuss the actual existence of divine beings --Svartalf 10:59, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

It's also worth noting that Crom in this context is essentially the creation of Howard. Author's intent is vital here. He is not an exact translation of Crom Cruich, and as "Svartalf" mentioned, Howard didn't mean for people to believe in or worship his Crom. He meant the god to be a fictional feature of his fictional word based around a fictional character. Awakeandalive1 20:22, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Divine Intervention in Howard's Work

Crom's intervention

Somebody mentioned that Crom intervenes once to save a middle-aged Conan from an evil wizard... I don't remember this from the Scarlet Citadel or the Hour of the Dragon, could somebody remind me where this appeared? I'd say that if this bit is from apocryphal writings by somebody else than Howard (and it does not feel like he did it), it might be worth mentioning that it is not conform to the original. --Svartalf 10:59, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Did you mark it as unsourced or without references? I haven't read as many of Howard's Conan stories as I wish to, but if you can't find a mention of it then it needs to be marked. Awakeandalive1 20:22, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I think it might be in Conan the Avenger by de Camp (see this blog entry ar REHupa). It definitely is not in one of Howard's stories. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 16:29, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Mitra's intervention

Please read Howard's 1933 story "Black Colossus" for further confirmation of (at least early on in the author's career) divinities intervening in the lives of mortals. The god speaks to the princess and tells her to entrust her life to the first man she meets in the street, who just so happens to be Conan. Awakeandalive1 (talk) 23:58, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Read the story again. After this so-called conversation with "Mitra", the princess says that the whole thing might have been a trick of the priests. Howard had the tendancy to call the "truth" of organized religions into question in his Conan stories. Not only is there little or no evidence that the gods actually exist (with what little evidence we get being easily called into question as I have pointed out above), but when the nature of the gods is discussed, a line such as "or so say their priests" would often be added in. Zigra

Here is a good article to read on the subject-

http://hyboria.xoth.net/gods/good_gods.htm Zigra

Have re-read the story many times, and in that particular story it's pretty clearly a supernatural being speaking, even though the protagonist doubts it (much like in "The Phoenix on the Sword", where again, the protagonist doubts supernatural intervention though it is clear to the reader what has happened). Howard's work and his approach to the world he was creating varied over the years -- much the way in some stories Howard criticizes racism and in others employs decidedly racist imagery and language. He changed his vision of the world he was creating many times, slowly refining it, but often just writing what his publishers wanted (ie: what would make a sexy/exciting cover painting) or what matched the conventions of the time. "Black Colossus" is an early story, and while the princess at one point CONSIDERS the possibility that it might have been a trick, it's implied that that's largely because her people had abandoned worship of Mitra and she wasn't used to taking religious oracles seriously. If that offends your interpretation of his work, that's unfortunate, but the reality of his evolution as an author and the evolution of his portrayal of Hyboria are unquestionable. His later stories do not necessarily reflect what his earlier stories conveyed. Awakeandalive1 (talk) 16:55, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

It's open to debate (my reading is that it was a trick). You would really need a reference of some kind to include it, otherwise it would be in original research territory. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 12:01, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Not to put too fine a point on it, but wouldn't the "trick" reading be the original research in this case? I agree it can be ambiguous, but aside from the "theophany" reading fitting with the way he presented the supernatural in his earlier stories, the story itself does not state or imply that it was a trick. Any such conclusion is drawn from one's personal interpretation of the girl's musing and this story's place in Howard's general corpus. Awakeandalive1 (talk) 14:54, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me, but aren't you just stating your own personal interpretation as well? You say that it was "clearly" a divine being she was talking to, yet I don't see any hard evidence in the story to back up your presumption. In fact, that there are people who have read that to be a trick shows that this is not as clear cut as you say.User:Zigra

No, I'm not stating my personal opinion in the article. I'm taking the story at face value. Since, aside from the girl's momentary doubt, there's no indication in the story that it is a trick, to presume such on the grounds that later on in Howard's work he exhibits skepticism re: divine beings is OR. Awakeandalive1 (talk) 16:15, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Making any sort of unreferenced statement would be OR really. I think I might have a reference to this somewhere but it would take a while to find it. Adding the word "ambiguous" somewhere should be enough for now. I'm a little too tired to think of a good way to word it but perhaps:

...Howard's story "Black Colossus" has a princess vocally, yet ambiguously, directed by Mitra to make Conan her champion

Re-wording the entire paragraph around this might be better, although this is really an article about Crom rather than Mitra. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 16:25, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I considered including quotes from the story, but (like you) felt that would be off-topic in an article that is supposed to be about Crom. Frankly the whole section on whether or not Howard wrote his world as having actual gods seems off-topic, but it does offer some context -- even if, as currently written, it cleaves to the erroneous idea that Howard's views and approaches never changed over the course of his career.Awakeandalive1 (talk) 16:15, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Ishtar intervention

Are this article's sources limited to works by Howard? The Conan universe was created by him, but it was hugely expanded after his death. Since De Camp, Thomas, Busiek et al were all authorized to write their stories, shouldn't their works also be included in the canon?

That said, I recall reading a Conan comic in which the cimmerian releases the one and only Ishtar from the hands of an evil sorcerer. The goddess was bounded in human form and kept as a slave by a former priest of her cult. After her release, she abandons her human shell and appears floating in the sky as a glowing giant head talking with Conan. According to Google that story was originally published in Conan the Barbarian I #40 ("The Fiend from the Forgotten City"). Take a look at this site (picture of the apparition included) http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/inanna.htm .

Which implies that, although in Howard works the existence of gods in the Hyborian Age was ambiguous, some latter contributors to the canon made clear that they were very real.

189.21.103.2 (talk) 23:38, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I would VERY MUCH like to separate the sources from Howard's original stories from that of the posthomous pastiche stories, primarily because the later sources diverge so greatly and citing them would deliver inaccurate impressions. Kortoso (talk) 17:21, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

"Fictional" Deity Distinction

What exactly makes Crom any more fictional than Yahweh? It is quite unnecessary to append that descriptor to something that is implicitly fictional.--Anthonzi (talk) 02:14, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Already covered above. In short, Yahweh may or may not be real and definitely believed to be a real entity by about half of the human race. Crom is an explicitly fictional creation used only within explicit works of fiction. It also provides disambiguation from the real-world inspiration. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 12:23, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

"Yahweh may or may not be real and definitely believed to be a real entity" - That is not for you to decide, unless you have proof. All deities are fictional. Wikipedia ist beyond religous bickering and zeal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:D0:D722:2531:A92B:B7EF:1B:922D (talk) 19:32, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

While I agree with the points made above regarding Robert E Howards intention that Crom would be a fictional god within a specific narrative, and while I also agree that for practical reasons it is necessary to distinguish Crom from Crom Cruach, it is still not acceptable to highlight Crom as a fictional deity, especially not in the title of the page. The problem stems from the fact that making such a claim steps into the domain of both philosophical debate and ideology. I understand that the editors may think of it as a practical and neutral (and it might be said harmless) title, but its pragmatic nature is both ideologically loaded and confusing, which is not in the remit of wikipedia. To reiterate: Svartalf said above that "This is not the place to discuss the actual existence of divine beings --Svartalf 10:59, 17 June 2007 (UTC)"

- and this is precisely why the title of the page should not include the question of whether Crom is or isn't a fictional deity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by OscarDenton (talk • contribs)

Crom is fictional. There's not a whole lot to discuss there, as no one will disagree with that statement. Whether or not any other deities are fictional or not is irrelevant, as the word "deity" does not inherently imply "fictional". Even to an atheist who firmly believes that no deities exist, there still remains the possibility that deities could exist (they just don't). Such a thing is not impossibly by definition, and thus deities are not necessarily fictional in any philosophical sense. Thus the term "fictional deity" is both meaningful and the most neutral phrasing possible. - Alltat (talk) 19:24, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

"the word "deity" does not inherently imply "fictional"" - some would disagree.109.176.248.246 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:58, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

The number of people who believe something does not dictate whether or not that thing is true. If at least one person believes that Crom is a real entity, then Crom is non-fictional in exactly the same way that every other deity is. There are people who actually worship Crom, and believe him to be a figure that, while mentioned extensively in works of fiction, is very real. This makes the "fictional" designation inaccurate, discriminatory, and to many, offensive. I could illustrate at length the Christian-centric manner in which Wikipedia tends to treat religions, but that's off-topic here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.196.189.41 (talk) 23:42, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia policy, "A Wikipedia article should not make a fringe theory appear more notable or more widely accepted than it is". See WP:FRINGE.– Gilliam (talk) 23:47, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Spears of Clontarf

I've been reading more Robert Howard and one of the characters, Conn, in Spears of Clontarf, a historical fiction, says the phrase "by Crom". It is in the second chapter. Crom is not a fictional god limited to only Conan it appears, apparently this deity influence spreads across Robert Howards many works. This might be important to note in the page. --72.129.151.117 (talk) 18:44, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Conn was also the name of Conan's son within the Hyborean Age continuity. From what I've gathered, Howard, who often rewrote some of his stories so that they fit within other canons he created, also reworked this one. And it is likely that he either added the reference intending to set it within the Hyborean, or accidentally left it in when adapting it to a different age. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.117.107.182 (talk) 23:42, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

As a work of historical fiction, that would be a reference to the historical deity (Crom), not to the Hyborian subject of this article. Kortoso (talk) 17:19, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Book of Kells Reference

According to the article, there is a reference to Crom in the movie, The Secret of Kells. However, the reference in that movie is not to Robert E. Howard's fictional deity, but to the Celtic deity, Crom Cruach. This needs to be corrected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.117.107.182 (talk) 23:45, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Nature of the god

IMHO this needs major rewriting. Can we acheive consensus on this?

• Stick to quotes from the stories. Refrain from speculation/original research.
• Let's separate the non-canonical stories ("Works by other authors" or somesuch) from the original stories. Otherwise we wind up referencing the TV cartoons, movies and whatnot.

What say ye? Kortoso (talk) 17:29, 9 August 2013 (UTC)