Talk:Crollalanza theory of Shakespeare authorship

Some tips upon the first draft of this page

• You have given, in the texts, suggestions to the reader, which one should not do.
• It is best not to direct the reader to another wiki page (See, for example...). Wikipedia is not (generally) a reliable source.
• If you find something on a related wiki page that is pertinent to the page you are writing, then research via google/google books to reconstruct your presentation directly from that source. Otherdumbwise you run the risk of taking on trust what Wikipedia says, a very dubious procedure.Nishidani (talk) 19:09, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Italian Wikipedia page on Crollalanza

The setting up of this page (thanks Nishidani) makes the information that is available in English more comparable to that in the Italian-language version of Wikipedia. There the "ipotesi Crollalanza" is dealt with in the main page on "Theory of Shakespeare Authorship",under the subheading L'ipotesi sull'italianità di Shakespeare. Remarks from the Italian editors on their Talk page suggest that some of them are underwhelmed by the case for Crollalanza and by Iuvara's book on him. Yet they give Crollalanza space comparable to that given to John Florio, who is at least historically well attested and an undoubted influence upon Shakespeare. Presumably they do this because of the attention Crollalanza has received in popular culture. (I have seen a blog by an Italy-based teacher of English saying that he has given up trying to convince his students that Shakespeare is not Crollalanza. And to Italians wanting some ownership of an author who is so valued in their country (see Paola Marinozzi's article) there is perhaps a facile charm in the notion that "Shakespeare" is the translation of an Italian surname.) No doubt the Crollalanza theory will become better known to English-speakers as Alicia Maksimova's film makes its way around late-night TV.

The automatic translation of the Italian section on Crollalanza is so nearly imcomprehensible that I have made a rough translation of it (as it was in mid April 2017) into more idiomatic English, and placed this on the Italian Talk page here. Note that some of the material in the previous section, about John Florio, is also relevant--because these theories have not always been distinct; and some stories, such as Palladino's claim that there was an earlier Italian version of Much Ado about Nothing, are also found in the accounts of Crollalanza.

The English page also contains a link to a brief entry for Michelangelo Florio Crollalanza in the Sicilian-language version of Wikipedia. There he is treated as a historical personage from Messina, but without either birth date or death date. (Note: this link has since been removed because it led to some problems. cf. the discussion below this one.)

In case you want a translation of the Sicilian text, it simply mentions the idea that he "should be identified with William Shakespeare," then states, “These speculations will not interest serious students of literature.” ("Secunnu sti spiculazzioni, lu missinisi s'avissi a idintificari cu William Shakespeare. Sti spiculazzioni nun truvaru cumunqui nudda ecu ntô munnu di studiusi di littiratura.”) Marcasella (talk) 01:53, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

'Sti spiculazzioni nun truvaru cumunqui nudda ecu ntô munnu di studiusi di littiratura.

Just a minor point but surely that is 'These speculations have not found any eco in the world of literary students.' (truvaru' being the preterite form)Nishidani (talk) 17:46, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes, that's a much more accurate translation. Though "studiusi di littiratura", at least in its standard-Italian equivalent, would mean literary scholars (i.e. experts) rather than literary students.Marcasella (talk) 00:20, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes, sorry. I was rushing to get to the dinner table, realized the error, but after dinner had other things to do and forgot to adjust.Nishidani (talk) 08:02, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Linking to the right Michelangelo Florio

In the first line of this article there is a reference to a Michelangelo Florio. Double square brackets must not be used around this name, because the link would then go to the wrong person, to the well attested Michelangelo Florio who was the father of the Elizabethan humanist John Florio. There is in fact a page for the right Michelangelo Florio (a Sicilian), but only in the Sicilian version of Wikipedia, and I created a link to it at https://scn.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michil%C3%A0ngilu_Floriu_Crollalanza (and provided a translation on the Talk page, since it was not worth space on the main page--See the Section immediately above). However on 21 April 2017 "Mervyn" changed the link so that it now goes to the wrong Michelangelo Florio, adding the note "Must link to English Wikipedia". What to do?

I used an {{interlanguage link}} to link to the scn wiki. Until such time as an English page is created, it will show a redlink but still offer a link to the existing page. Primefac (talk) 16:15, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Primefac, but the fix still needs another tweak. At present the name shows in red, as you say, but in an unfamiliar Sicilian language form (with words ending in -u) which is not desirable. Also, anyone who clicks on it is taken not to the relevant page in the Sicilian-language Wikipedia but to an unmade English page for this name in its Sicilian form. Only if they think to click on the inconspicuous "scn" after the name will they go directly to the right page for this person. I think that the desired formula is https://scn.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michil%C3%A0ngilu_Floriu_Crollalanza + Michelangelo Florio (all inside square brackets) not ill|Michilàngilu Floriu Crollalanza|scn inside curly brackets. But this is still no good if it gets automatically removed because it starts with [https://scn.wikip...

(We could also consider adding a footnote: There is no English-language page for this person. For English translation, right click on the Sicilian-language text and choose "Translate into English".) Marcasella (talk) 01:07, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed. The whole point of {{ill}} is to show that there is no en-wiki page, but yet one exists on another wiki. It's either this or no link. Primefac (talk) 01:27, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

I just looked up all references easily available to me. Those that mention Crollalanza's name in full, without exception, spell it "Florio", not "Floriu". So whatever the Sicilian version of the name may be, in English (and in Italian), he's spelled "Florio", and on the English Wikipedia, that's the spelling an article about him on the English Wikipedia should use. If the Sicilian version of the article is titled wrongly, that should be fixed over there. Huon (talk) 01:37, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

I've given up on linking to the Sicilian Wikipedia --it created too many problems. Instead have re-written the first paragraph. Marcasella (talk) 16:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Dente faulty reference

Under Impact and criticism section... "However the academic Carla Dente, writing in 2013 in the Journal of Anglo-Italian Studies..." - but the ref points to a different journal and different year: "Dente, Carla (September 2014). Carpi, Daniela; Monateri, Pier Giuseppe, eds. "Counterfeit Classics: Shakespeare/Camilleri Joking with Masks, Translations and Traditions". Pólemos, Journal of Law, Literature and Culture. Walter de Gruyter. 8 (2): 245–262." Please check. --Mervyn (talk) 07:34, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

I've tried to resolve this issue. The confusion seems to stem from the preprint copy published on academia.edu, which uses both the title for the 2014 article in Pólemos and the 2013 article in the Journal of Anglo-Italian Studies. It is possible that this is actually the same article, first published in Journal of Anglo-Italian Studies and then submitted to Pólemos under a new name, but with the submitted preprint retaining the original title. One would need to have access to a physical copy of the issue of Journal of Anglo-Italian Studies to be sure (the Pólemos article is available online from Degruyter). --Xover (talk) 08:27, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for that. I should have spotted the obvious discrepancy between the title and the URL!  Self-trout --NSH001 (talk) 09:51, 25 April 2017 (UTC)