Talk:Craig Harrison (British Army soldier)

Untitled

The velocity calculations are off. Way off. The velocity for the round should be 826 METERS per second, rather than 826 FEET per second. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.58.172.163 (talk) 23:18, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

The external ballistics program JBM, using C_d drag data for the used bullet provided by the ammunition manufacturer Lapua, predicts a V₂₄₇₅ ≈ 251.8 m/s (826 ft/s) for a 16.2 g Lapua LockBase cartridge fired at 936 m/s V₀ at 1024 m elevation. This is a low but credible value, since other non free external ballistic programs predict similar values for the assumed (atmospheric) conditions. To put things in perspective, like Accuracy International director Tom Irwin, I think striking 2 persons with 2 shots under fine shooting conditions at high altitude and hence in a not very dense atmosphere with state of the art technology is only possible with a fair amount luck. Minor variables changes like a muzzle velocity deviation of 5 m/s would mean a miss at 2475 m distance. Remind a person at 2,475 m is merely about 0.2 mil (0.6 MOA) wide and 0.7 mil (2.4 MOA) tall. This means such a target can be just dialled in by the telescopic sight used on the L115A3. Rendering a significant smaller target like a PK machine gun out of action at such a distance with one shot can purely be attributed to luck, since the employed aiming components and fire control system can even theoretically not be deliberately aimed at targets smaller than 0.1 mil (0.3 MOA). We will have to wait if more information emerges to calculate the exact atmospheric density on the shooting site and other relevant detials and if the story is correct or got garbled by journalists, since realism dictates there must be a lot of luck involved to achieve the feats mentioned in the media reports.-Francis Flinch (talk) 08:29, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I edited the fact that only the 45 MOA base fits for the S&B PM2 5-25x56, since it has a larger objective diameter than other S&B PM2 telescopic sights which have 50 mm obj. diameter. I've tried the 28 MOA, with the 5-25x56 on my own rifle and even has pictures of it not fitting, so therefore its true! ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.225.33.171 (talk) 14:17, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out. According to Accuracy International their 28 MOA mounts are not .338 Lapua Magnum compatible. For the MILITARY S&B PMII 5-25x56 0.1 MIL RAD parallax, illumination, double turn telescopic sight Accuracy International offers these canted mounts as accessories: 34mm MOUNT (45moa) - USE ON .338 DOUBLE TURN SCOPE and a 34mm MOUNT FOR PICATINNY RAIL (45moa) - USE ON .338 DOUBLE TURN SCOPE. The other cant angles information has been removed, since they add nothing and make the article confusing.--Francis Flinch (talk) 08:21, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The picture of the P4F reticle in the article is incorrect, the picture depicts the P4L-reticle, I am not sure what ret. is used on L115A3 though —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.225.33.171 (talk) 11:15, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

The accompanying text uses the neutral sounding "P4 reticle". Your observation that the actual drawing is of a P4L reticle is correct. These images are primarily intended to help explain the for most people complex/creative concept of the possibility to use hash marks in aiming solutions.--Francis Flinch (talk) 14:27, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Distance record

Article says "holds the record for the longest confirmed sniper kill in combat, at a range of 2,475 m (2,707 yd). Established in 2010, the shot exceeds the previous record of Rob Furlong set in 2002 by 2,475 m (2,707 yd) by 45 m (49 yd)."

He beat the old record which is exactly the same as his record?85.246.54.87 (talk) 20:21, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Furlongs shot was 2,430 metres (2,657 yds). - Galloglass 21:43, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Further to that the opening of this page directly contradicts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMillan_Tac-50 which still claims the old record as the current one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.134.137.34 (talk) 08:44, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I updated the MCMillan Tac 50 page since, thanks.Twobells (talk) 11:21, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Discrete vandalism? Or "the 45 km shot"

The first sentence of the second paragraph says this: "In November 2009, Harrison struck two Taliban machine gunners south of Musa Qala in Helmand Province in Afghanistan at a range of 45,475 m (49,732 yd) using a L115A3 Long Range Rifle."

That's QUITE a shot. Beyond the range of most howitzers. Somehow I don't think that's QUITE accurate. As that was the only thing changed in the most recent revision, I undid it. -Indalcecio (talk) 07:34, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Tom Irwin's Comment

Tom Irwin said his comment was taken out of context as Harrison made all three shots consecutively (officer, mgunner and mgun) which indicates that 'luck' wasn't involved, Harrison and his spotter rather walked in to the target using the conditions to his advantage reflecting his outstanding ability. In fact all three articles promote the idea that 'luck' was involved when this obviously is not the case. No other associated article (Furlong, Perry etc) suggests that 'luck' had anything to do with shooting and I believe that it doesn't belong here either. Twobells (talk) 19:19, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Luck can not be ruled out. The fire control system used allows for 0,1 mrad adjustment increments. The cross hairs of the P4L Fein reticle used are also 0.1 mrad thick, so smaller adjustment increments would be futile. Since 0.1 mrad at 2,475 m equates to a width of 24.75 cm the crosshairs would completely obscure the significantly smaller PK machine gun receiver. When shooting a for the employed fire control system invisible (human hand sized) target luck plays a part. The current benchrest 1,000-yard (914.4 m) 5-shot group world record holder Tom Sarver used a .300 Hulk wildcat cartridge, which is basically a necked-down, blown out, shortened .338 Lapua Magnum variant, to achieve a 1.403-inch (35.64 mm) diameter 5-shot group on 7 July 2007. Theoretically at 2,475 m (2,707 yd) this group would have grown to 3.798-inch (96.47 mm). This would mean Mr. Sarver was theoretically able to hit a hand sized target several times at that range on a very good day. Shooting sub 1.5 inch 5-shot or sub 3 inch 10-shot groups at 1,000 yd are exceptional feats in benchrest shooting where the most precise and accurate center fire rifle systems and ammunition are employed (under except the uncontrollable weather favorable conditions). The increase of group size with the increase of the number of shots is normal and has to do with statistics. Do Accuracy International Arctic Warfare rifles hold benchrest world records? Not that I know of. Even high-end military sniper rifles like the AI AW series are not accurate enough to compete at top level against benchrest rifles that are made with the sole purpose of being as accurate as possible.

Like Harrison Furlong also fired multiple spotter shots and experienced lack of elevation on his telescopic sight before making his record hits at targets below his firing position at extreme range. Non flat fire scenarios are advantageous since angles effectively reduce the horizontal distance (see inclined fire article). Sadly this information can not be properly referenced. Please understand that I do not mean to imply that Mr. Harrison, Mr. Furlong, Mr. Perry or Mr. Hathcock are/were not exceptional capable and creative shooters.

Since active snipers generally are not amused when their identity is revealed by the press and other media (snipers have a history of being maltreated or killed when captured) they tend to avoid public discussions regarding their activities. This means we often do not know enough to be able to exactly calculate and hence judge many record shot feats by military snipers.

Can you provide a proper reference to Mr. Irwin saying his comment was taken out of context? --Francis Flinch (talk) 18:42, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't need to, the cites do that for me, Mr Irwin was talking about 'it', the rifle in a much earlier interview, not the 2 confirmed kills as well as destroying the weapon. For some reason someone attempted to tie up the two together. In fact, there has been attempts to discredit Craig's achievements by both US and Canadian editors since the kills were first recorded. No other 'longest confirmed kill' sniper article mentions how 'perfect' the conditions, or 'luck', it is the worst sort of behaviour, the worst. I have since put the incident in context. Twobells (talk) 14:22, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Please provide proper refenrences to what Mr. Irwin said. I can not find any reference to Mr. Irwin words anymore. Wikipedia:NPOV says to keep articles neutral. I can not help non Brits do not like this remarkable achievement. Rest assured all other record shooters mentioned in Wikipedia also fired several shots before connecting for the first time to their very distant targets and all these record feats took place at ranges well beyond the normal maximum effective range of the involved rifle systems and every shooter was very skilled and lucky. The Wikipedia articles due to lack of references just do not mention that. Long range Benchrest world records also tend to be set with the help of favorable weather conditions, etc. and with sub 10-shot groups luck is also involved. Logic dictates that hitting a machine gun receiver that is dimensionally smaller than the minimum arc 0.1 mrad increment (or 24.75 cm/click) that can be dailed in at 2475 m by the employed telescopic sight (S&B produces very good tracking aiming optics) involves more than pure skill alone. Is Mr. Harrison a very capable rifleman; of course he is. The journalists who wrote the reference articles generally do not understand the technical complexities of ultra long range shooting well and to me it appears they were just after easy spectacular stories. The Guinness World Records certificate also contains an obvious flight time error. The mentioned 3 seconds flight time would imply a nearly vacuum. I still wonder that the British military allowed any information regarding an active sniper to get public.--Francis Flinch (talk) 15:23, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

He wasn't active, the MOD released the facts after he left theatre. Btw, I cannot find the quote attributed to Tom Irwin anywhere, Subsequently I have spoken to the company directly and having checked their records cannot either, the news articles I did find had sourced the quote from HERE, subsequently I am going to remove it, the only place such a quote 'on luck' belongs is on the rifle's page if it ever existed which at this point I doubt. Twobells (talk) 14:04, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

References

Allegedly no longer the world record for distance

Just came in from browsing the 'longest recorded sniper shots' page and main 'sniper' page. Apparently cite note 22 on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper#Counter-sniper_tactics gives the current record to an un-named Australian. (presume un-named because he's on active duty still). Given this talk page seems to be pernickety about details, and full of experts, you're no doubt all able to verify and update this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.240.108.168 (talk) 16:50, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Look at the Longest recorded sniper kills references section and the talk page. The October 29, 2012 report in the Australian Daily Telegraph newspaper is a not very clear report that, tough mentioning that shooting beyond the weapons capability calls for skill and luck that can be regarded as critical, as the sole reference might not be good enough to sustain the reported claim beyond 2013. Up to now nobody has provided a second reference source regarding the "Daily Telegraph claim". At http://soldiersystems.net/2012/11/26/steve-reichert-on-the-2815-meter-shot/ you will find a critical analysis of the "Daily Telegraph claim" by Steve Reichert. U.S. Marine Corps Staff Sergeant Steve Reichert is mentioned as a notable 21st century military sniper in the sniper article.--Francis Flinch (talk) 08:17, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

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Conflicting Distance Info

This article gives two different distances for the 'longest shot' made by the subject...

Intro = 2,475 m (2,707 yd)
Record distance = 2,474 m (2,706 yd)

217.33.79.34 (talk) 23:30, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

The reference 2474 m actually states 8120 ft, which is 2474.976 m. 2474 m is obviously incorrect.--Francis Flinch (talk) 15:51, 26 March 2017 (UTC)