Talk:County of Oldenburg

Problems with Infobox

The creation date seems arbitrary. It appears to be based upon a Comes Egilmarus witnessing a charter in which Archbishop Liemar of Bremen confirmed a donation in 1091, but this Egilmar did not hold the title "Count of Oldenburg." Even if we wished to anachronistically call him that, however, he was surely alive before 1091; indeed, Egilmar is mentioned in the Historia Monasterii Rastedensis as filius sororis comitis Hunonis, i.e., son of the sister of one Huno, who according to MedLands[1], "Historia Monasterii Rastedensis names 'Huno comes,' specifies that he held `comitibus Rustringie,' [and] founded the church in Rastede '1059 III Id Sep.'" It does seem clear that, by the time the title comes into use, the dynasty's patrimony in the area had been well-established, so it's not a horrible anachronism to use 1059, if we don't arbitrarily select some time in the 12th century.

However, there's another issue, to wit, the "breakup of Saxony." Understanding Saxony in this period as a unitary entity (as, indeed, is the case with any feudal polity of this period) is completely anachronistic. Although the Liudolfing Dukes could arguably be said to have controlled it, Otto I created a military command in eastern Saxony in 936, when he appointed Hermann Billung "princeps militiæ" (you'll note that they did not use the title dux), and a number of frontier commands under other nobles (e.g., the Nordmark, which eventually became Brandenburg; Meissen; etc.). Westphalia was still largely part of the royal demense, and administered by various other nobles, including several prelates. Having said that, one could call this a period of relative integrity, particularly since the Billungs managed to accumulate significant possessions in the area. Does this refer to Magnus Billungs' imprisonment for participating in Otto von Northeim's rebellion against Henry IV in 1070? I'm aware of no evidence that this resulted in a breakup of the Billung patrimony; Magnus was allowed to inherit his father's title even while he was imprisoned for over a year, and was never deprived of his title in spite of being repeatedly imprisoned and even joining Rudolf von Rheinfelden's rebellion. The only event that closely approximates a breakup that is within reasonably proximity to 1091 is Magnus' death in 1106 (note that this occurs over a decade later), when the Billung patrimony was divided between the Welfs and the Askanier (later the ruling house of Brandenburg), but Lothar von Süpplingenburg fairly quickly established dominance after this, so even that doesn't really make sense. The real "breakup" of Saxony occurred in 1180 when Frederick Barbarossa deprived Henry the Lion of the Saxon ducatus, thus radically fragmenting ducal authority there, as had occurred in Franconia, Lotharingia, and Swabia. The Oldenburger were already well-established by that point, although this also arguably be considered to be the foundation of the state, as they did not really enjoy imperial immediacy prior to that.

I therefore suggest that either the creation date be changed to "before 1059" and reference to "breakup of Saxony" be removed, or the creation date be changed to 1180. --Masque (talk) 03:52, 12 February 2019 (UTC)