Talk:Correspondence of Lorraine toponyms in French and German

Title change

There is a similar page for place names in Alsace titled German place names (Alsace). This page should be retitled to be consistent with that page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.76.152.10 (talk) 21:04, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Except Alsace is, or at least was, a region with two departments (Bas-Rhin and Haut-Rhin), both of which are represented on that Alsace page. Whereas Moselle is a department, one of four (Meurthe-et-Moselle, Meuse, Moselle, and Vosges) in the historical region of Lorraine. It probably makes more sense to change this page to the scope of former Lorraine, thus adding the three missing departments. It would also match better with the associated French page that provides important linguistical background. See 'Page structure' section below. --Rootwarden (talk) 08:05, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Eleven years on, I have moved the title to better reflect the scope of historical Lorraine (not just Moselle) and the translated material from the associated French page. Because of the Germanic influence in northeastern France, and the important and sensitive nature of Lorraine's history, as touched upon in the translated material that's coming, it doesn't make sense to treat the departments in former Lorraine as separate toponym pages, or they lose the introductory context and explanation sections. (Ideally, a similar treatment of history and page re-titling would be applied to the German place names (Alsace) because the history is related to a degree, but yet unique too, and the toponyms for France in the List of German exonyms page seems ill-organized and pointless in that format. But those are different efforts.) --Rootwarden (talk) 16:12, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

Page structure

Of course, adding the communes of four departments to a single page, as proposes above, could make for a longer page if the current table structure is used (and the tables are a wasteful use of space, really). A more conservative and equally logical structure would be to create inline lists for toponyms/exonyms/communes grouped alphabetically using a Template:Flatlist. So, using the structure of the French page, and the A names in Moselle, it would look something like follows: --Rootwarden (talk) 08:05, 12 September 2019 (UTC) ; updated Rootwarden (talk • contribs) 18:04, 12 September 2019 (UTC); updated --Rootwarden (talk) 16:48, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

== Roman / Germanic correspondences ==

=== Toponymic correspondence with communes in Moselle ===

Toponyms are structured as: French (German).

A

• Aboncourt-sur-Seille (Abenhofen)
• Abreschviller (Abreschweiler)
• Achain (Eschen)
• Achen (Achen)
• Ackerbach (Ackerbach)
• Adelange (Adelingen)
• Adaincourt (Adinghofen)
• Aidling (Aidlingen)
• Albeschaux (Albschhofen)
• Albestroff (Albesdorf)
• Albing (Albingen)
• Algrange (Algringen)
• Alsting (Alstingen)
• Alteville (Altweiler)
• Althorn (Althorn)
• Altkirch (Altkirch)
• Altrippe (Altrip)
• Altroff (Altdorf)
• Alt-Schmelz (Alt Schmelz)
• Altviller (Altweiler)
• Alzing (Alzingen)
• Amanvillers (Amanweiler 1871-1918, Almansweiler 1940-1944)
• Amelécourt (Almerichshofen)
• Amnéville (Ammenweiler)
• Ancerville (Anserweiler)
• Ancy-Dornot, formerly Ancy-sur-Moselle (Ansen an der Mosel 1871-1883, Ancy an der Mosel 883-1915), Anzig 1915-1918 and 1940-1944)
• Angevillers (Arsweiler)
• Angviller-lès-Bisping (Angweiler)
• Anzeling (Anzelingen)
• Apach (Apach)
• Arlange (Arlingen)
• Arraincourt (Arnsdorf)
• Arriance (Argenheim)
• Arry (Arry 1871-1915, Arrich 1915-1918, Aringen 1940-1944
• Ars-Laquenexy (Ars bei Kenchen)
• Ars-sur-Moselle (Ars an der Mosel)
• Arzviller (Arzweiler)
• Aspach (Aspach)
• Assenoncourt (Essesdorf)
• Attilloncourt (Edelinghofen)
• Aube (Alben)
• Audun-le-Tiche (Deutsch Oth)
• Audviller (Ottweiler)
• Augny (Auning 1915-1918, Auningen 1940-1944)
• Aulnois-sur-Seille (Erlen)
• Aumetz (Aumetz)
• Avricourt (Deutsch-Avricourt 1871-1915, Elfringen 1915-18 and 1940-44)
• Ay-sur-Moselle (Aich an der Mosel)
• Azoudange (Anslingen 1915-1918, Aßlingen 1940-1944)

B

• Ba
• Baa
• Beau
• Bor
• Br

Etc

• etc
• etc
• etc

Patterns currently used for inline list items: --Rootwarden (talk) 08:05, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

• FR name (DE equivalent) (e.g. Achain)
• FR name (first DE equivalent yyyy–yyyy, second DE equivalent yyyy–yyyy and yyyy–yyyy) (e.g. Avricourt)
• current FR name, former FR name[ref] (first DE equivalent of current yyyy–yyyy, second DE equivalent of current yyyy–yyyy, etc) (e.g. Ancy-Dornot)

Seem okay? Further suggestions? Note this does not include INSEE or area codes, which I see some of these 'exonym' pages using and others not. I don't see the point of adding the codes, for two reasons: First, they are unnecessary since the full lists of departmental communes (e.g. Communes of the Moselle department), as well as the individual pages for said communes, already make that information clear (or should). Adding them in the inline lists here provides no particular reward or value in light of the purpose of these exonym pages. Second, they clog up the list and make them harder to scan. If we use only numbers for dates, there's no mental overload trying to distinguish dates from area codes. This makes the inline layouts feasible overall, but it also makes the layout more concise, and the list layouts more friendly to mobile screens. --Rootwarden (talk) 08:05, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

After some days absorbing it all and looking about at the French pages for communes in Moselle, it occurs to me that keeping a table format would be useful to add Lorraine Franconian equivalents to toponyms. You can often find these mentioned in the individual pages of French communes. But that means making 3-column tables, which isn't easier than making inline lists as proposed. In fact, a fourth column could be used to provide some significance of names. E.g. Bouteiller talks about many in the introduction of his dictionary, beginning around page xxxviii, including some of those that were of Celtic or Latin influence. --Rootwarden (talk) 17:19, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Toponyms (place names)

Huberville is in Normandy, not Moselle. I was unable to find Halmoze in France at all. Haussonville is in Meurthe-et-Moselle, not Moselle according to Haussonville --JJohnson1701 (talk) 03:48, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Halmoze is indeed hard to find, but it is there, directly adjacent (east) to Niderhoff. Find Niderhoff on the map and you'll find Halmoze on route D41b. A little further east of Halmoze, on the same route (D41b), is another village, Heille, which is not listed either. However, it's possible these are newer communes that don't actually qualify as exonyms (i.e. they may have emerged after Germanic influence over these areas?). --Rootwarden (talk) 07:44, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Turns out Halmoze, Heille, and some others are not communes at all, in fact, but are censes in the commune of Métairies-Saint-Quirin (you're better of translating the French page for understanding the history). See the last para of the introductory material of our current article. I will reference the names accordingly in the corresponding list when I update it.

As for Huberville, the prominent location is indeed in the Manche department of Normandy, not in Lorraine, but perhaps it's possible there is a lesser known and small village somewhere in Lorraine by the same name. --Rootwarden (talk) 07:44, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

As for Haussonville, this raises the obvious situation that this page is either titled or scoped inappropriately. I believe both. See relevant notes in 'Translation...' section below. --Rootwarden (talk) 09:44, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

It's probably worth pointing out the obvious: not all communes in Lorraine and Alsace existed before the last Germanic occupations. Or, more often than not, so far, they haven't remained the same. For example, when demographics increase in an area bringing two communes in the same canton indiscernibly together, they are often petitioned by both communes to be renamed as one larger new commune (there are usually benefits of some nature from doing so), often by hyphenating the two older names. For example, see Ancy-Dornot (Moselle, Loraine) and Brunstatt-Didenheim (Haut-Rhin, Alsace). Ergo, it's probably worth including a section at some point explaining this modern treatment of old locations. --Rootwarden (talk) 08:39, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

I have added details about this as the second-to-last para of the introductory material to this article. I will note these locations according in the respective toponym lists. --Rootwarden (talk) 16:34, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

That has now become the last section of the article. --Rootwarden (talk) 14:50, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Translations of the French page

The French page linked to this one has a lot of interesting and useful information about how toponyms in Lorraine (and Alsace) were formed, many of which emerged in the Merovingian and Carolingian eras. Thus toponyms in this region followed relatively consistent naming patterns. Often a village began by being named after the first Frank allowed to settle on a plot of unoccupied land. We'll never know who all these individuals were, of course, but the prefixes of many toponyms in this region tell us something about their names. Anyway, it would be good to run those French sections through Deepl, as a start, which at least syncs up the existing information here. In this case, where history concerns France, the French pages will likely always be updated first with new information. --Rootwarden (talk) 09:34, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

I have translated the first two main sections and their subsections of the associated French article. I am adding them to the main article one section at a time and cleaning them up as I go. I will continue with the translations until the full French article is completely translated. English article organization will be as follows: --Rootwarden (talk) 14:34, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Introductory material

Added. --Rootwarden (talk) 16:20, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

== Linquistical aspects of toponyms in Lorraine ==

=== The 'determinant-determined' of the Romano-Francs ===

Added. --Rootwarden (talk) 06:51, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

=== Lorraine diglossia ===

Added. --Rootwarden (talk) 07:10, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

== Historical aspects of toponyms in Lorraine ==

=== Definition of terms ===

Added. --Rootwarden (talk) 07:55, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

=== Waves of francization and germanization ===

Added. --Rootwarden (talk) 07:55, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

== Roman / Germanic correspondences ==

=== Comparison of Lorrain appellatives ===

Added --Rootwarden (talk) 16:20, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

=== Toponymic correspondences with communes in Meuse ===

Added (a few days ago). --Rootwarden (talk) 17:21, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

=== Toponymic correspondences with communes in Moselle ===

(to finish, started above, the biggest list)

=== Toponymic correspondences with communes in Muerthe-et-Moselle ===

=== Toponymic correspondences with communes in Vosges ===

=== Toponymic correspondences of high altitude pastures (Vosges, Haut-Rhin)