Talk:Corn snake/Archive 1

Archive 1

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The article says, "They are found throughout south-eastern and central North America as well as parts of Mexico." This isn't good wording, as Mexico is in North America.

Agreed. I made the change. This page is not one of those where such acrimony exists that edits without prior discussion are resented. Feel free to make bold changes, that is what Wikipedia is all about. Good spot, by the way.--Counsel 15:52, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

?????Is it true??????

There is no proof that this information is valid. This website could say, "Corn Snakes can not survive in the wild but can breathe under water and fly", and no one would question them. So who's to believe them? Now, I'm not saying that I believe that accusation personally, but just making a point. Is there any validation that i=this website is for real? I haven't found any, and have come to the conclusion that I shall not. Is there anyone who believes they have found proof? Just asking. November 1st, 2006

If you dislike the info provided, do your own research and update the page. WP is as accurate as it's contributors can make it, and while vandalism does happen, it tends to be repaired/reverted rapidly. Just check the history of any high-profile page to see WP policing itself. Also, you'll tend to get faster responses if you make an account and sign your comments with four tildes [these things "~"] ... BigFatDave 18:46, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Photos of Morphs

I have a red albino corn - would a photo of her/it be a nice addition, or create clutter? I'm not 100% sure, and I'd like some input before attempting boldness :) It'd also be in less of a natural-looking environment - probably on someone's arm - unlike the existing photos. Half-pint 02:06, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

How about posting it here, and then finding a place for it in the article? [I, personally, would put it in the "corn snakes as pets" section. ... BigFatDave 18:49, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Water?

"Many cities and towns have water that is unsuitable for corn snakes so it is advisable to use bottled water or to use a reptile water conditioner to make the water safe for the snake to drink." Can anyone provide a source for this statement? Silver2sg 06:14, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

The concerns are chemical treatment [harmless to larger animals] causing a slow poisoning effect, particularly in smaller/younger corns, or microorganisms causing diseases [ cryptosporidium in particular]. The safe option is to use bottled drinking water, which is sterile and generally has no leftover chemicals. While in the wild, corn snakes would drink whatever they happened across, captive corns don't have the resistances/immunities that wild ones would. Filtering would give the same effect, but bottled water is a pretty foolproof option.

As far as referneces go, Corn Snakes In Captivity by Don Soderberg backs this info up, I just pulled my copy and checked.

BigFatDave 15:17, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Name issues

Despite the fact that "In 2002, all North American rat snakes of the genus Elaphe were suggested for reclassification into the genus Pantherophis... however many people have not accepted the change, and it is still widely referred to as Elaphe..." it would be nice if the entire article referred to the animal as either one or the other, rather than alternating between both. 71.217.120.104 23:40, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Re: live feeding

A citation was requested for live feeding being illegal in the UK; I was not able to find one, and the law as written is somewhat of a gray area; it would appear illegal, unless necessary for the animal, in which case it might be required by the duty of care requirements. I did find that in Scotland, affected by the same Animal Welfare Bill, a discussion specifically about the topic did occur; an ammendment (no. 162) was suggested to specifically outlaw feeding of live mice to snakes, the discussion was as follows:

Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab): Amendment 162 is a probing amendment, so I will move it only to allow us to have the discussion. At present, the bill does not specifically prohibit the feeding of live vertebrates as prey. The practice seems to be a bit of a grey area, as an offence would be committed only if it was proven that unnecessary suffering occurred.

The feeding of one live animal to another is repulsive. The prey animal—usually a mouse or a rat—becomes terrified before being eaten alive by a snake or other reptile. Live feeding can also cause distress to the predator animal. For example, the Scottish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals was involved in a case in which a snake was caused unnecessary suffering by wounds inflicted by a rat or mouse prior to the snake eating it.

Live feeding is also widely considered to be unnecessary. Leading zoo collections no longer regard it as a necessity and many specialist texts recommend the feeding of dead prey. Scottish SPCA animal welfare centres feed exotic animals in their care with pre-killed animals and doing so does not compromise the welfare of the exotic animals.

Of course, the practice of live feeding might be necessary in a tiny minority of circumstances, such as when a caught wild animal requires to be weaned off live prey. When the committee took evidence at stage 1, that example was used to justify feeding with live animals. Amendment 162 would permit live feeding only when certified as necessary by a veterinary surgeon, so it would cover that example.

I move amendment 162.

The Convener: As no other committee members wish to comment, I ask the minister to respond.

The Deputy Minister for Environment and Rural Development (Rhona Brankin): I reassure Elaine Smith that, under the bill as introduced, it would be an offence for a person to feed a live protected animal to another animal. As soon as an animal comes under man's control, it becomes a protected animal. Under section 17, it will be an offence to cause a protected animal unnecessary suffering. I make it clear that live feeding would already be caught by the bill, so I ask the committee to reject amendment 162.

This suggests that although the law as written is a gray area, the discussion in Scottish parliament is not a gray area at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.103.172.9 (talk) 14:17, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Major edits

Ok, I've taken an axe to this article, particularly the section on captive care. Much of it is superfluous or irrelevant, with large chunks of text devoted to comparatively simple issues, and little organization. Some statements, such as deli-cups for hatchlings, is outright wrong (or, if not, whichever moron does it needs a good smack), as are statements about UV lights, the mythical live-feeding controversy, etc. The table is entirely superfluous, given the links at the bottom of the page, and advised far too frequent feedings - 2 weeks should pass at a minimum between feedings of adults, and sometimes 3 weeks. Reproduction has been expanded. Mokele (talk) 23:55, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Please Fix

The article has the following note: Note: Albino Okeetees are not okeetees, they are selectively bred amelanistics

There are many ROs out there that ARE in fact amel versions of the Okeetee phase. The amel abbott's line for example, I believe bred by Joe Pierce. Breed one of those to an Okeetee and you get Okeetee young het amel. Breed the hets together and you get 3/4 Okeetee young, 1/4 reverse okeetee. There certainly are some snakes marketed as reverse okeetee that should not be associated with okeetee, but there are also some normal corns markete as okeetee that should not be associated with okeetee.

There is a second error: Over hunting in their natural range for the pet trade has caused a decline in wild Okeetee specimens.

That is an opinion and can not be documented. If there has been a decline, it is not necessarily due to over collection for the pet trade. I kind of doubt it, in fact. Conjecture does not belong on the wikipedia page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FunkyRes (talk • contribs) 04:44, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Subspecies

The article claims that there are only two. Does anyone have a cite? My understanding is that there are multiple: The Rosy Rat among others is not mentioned.--Counsel 15:59, 8 May 2006 (UTC) .......... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.155.34.115 (talk) 13:52, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

"Constrictor" change

I was surprised that such a fairly good article would say that all snakes are constrictors, when clearly they are not, so I changed it.

Also, I would agree that using two genera for the same snake is confusing, but I didn't change it. Shouldn't you use one or the other in the text, yet maybe footnote it to indicate a controversy?

 Cheers, Dr. James C. Hendee (talk) 03:43, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Well if they're not constrictors, a lot of sites have been fooled. [1] Where are your references? Also, my own corn snake appears to be a perverted one, since it does a pretty good immitation of constriction (though not of course on dead mice). If you want to see what is clearly a corn snake clearly constricting a clearly live mouse on You-Tube, here you go: [2] SBHarris 00:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

You misunderstood. I said not ALL snakes are constrictors (see my original), which is what the original text said. Clearly that is not so. I'm sure you, like I, have owned many snakes and seen that, for instance, water snakes certainly are not constrictors. At any rate, it appears my change has held, so I guess the majority of reviewers agree. sharkface (talk) 02:01, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

The "how to" problem

An editor has noted that chunks of this article on "pets" read like a "how to" manual. Since encyclopedias are not supposed to be that, this is not good.

However, NPOV text on how people DO things, is not necessarily "how to" (though it always causes problems, as with the Wikis on sex and suicide). In this case, I think deletion of the "advice" style language (the "shoulds") will fix the problem. If you say "Thus and so manual on corn snake raising recomments that keepers do X" that's encyclopedic. See the Wiki on Dog training for an example of an article which would need complete overhaul or speed deletion if we were brutal about this policy. SBHarris 00:37, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I worked on the dog training article, too. It used to be more how-to content. The difference is, that page is about dog training, so training has to be described. This article is about a type of snake, so details about how to maintain it as a pet aren't all that appropriate. There could be a page like Corn Snakes, Pets where going into all that would make sense. Bob98133 (talk) 01:49, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, many of the articles of various reptiles an amphibians have captive care information, and I do think it's a valuable addition, as improper care is far and away the #1 cause of mortality in pet reptiles. This goes double for corns, easily the most common pet snake. Creating a separate page may work, but then one has to go through all the other articles doing the same, and that'll create a LOT of extra pages, and why? While wikipedia is supposed to be 'encyclopedic', I don't think we should confine ourselves to what's found in 'traditional' encyclopedias (which, after all, have limited space), since IMHO the lack of restriction due to this electronic form is one of the site's big strengths. I agree the "how to" element should be lost in favor of "this is what's done", but I'm a proponent of retaining the care information. After all, a quick look on google shows Wikipedia becoming the first stop on the internet for most information, so why not maximize that information? Mokele (talk) 14:15, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, do we want to spin off a Corn Snake (Pet) or Corn Snake (Care) article as a main one, and leave a short summary section here, for the purists? I'm happy to do the page creation and info move, if it keeps everybody happy. I just hate to see the information lost. And by the way, food does NOT have to be dry for Corn Snakes to eat it. They are very happy to have wet dead mice, and swallow them faster and more easily. You skeptics should try it. SBHarris 21:03, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't see this as a problem. How-to sections are discouraged by Wiki and they really have no place in an article about a specific animal. If an editor wants to create a separate "pet" or "care" page, that's fine. The article on automobile doesn't tell you how to change at tire or do a tune up. Besides, as pages like dog training illustrate, there are many different versions of the best way to do things, so the how-to sections end up being changed based on opinion without much in the way of references.Bob98133 (talk) 21:10, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

The article on autos may not tell you have to fix a flat tire (it's too general), but the article on flat tires has a long section on what to do with them. The problem of what's the "best way" to do something is related to what's the "truth" of a thing, and that's an old problem on Wikipedia. All you can do is follow sources. SBHarris 22:40, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

"one of the most popular"

In the opening paragraph. Peacock term? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.158.190.206 (talk) 21:01, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Shedding

I think there should be a section on the corn snake's shedding process. Perhaps this should go under the 'corn snake as a pet' section? I think this is important because as a first time snake owner I totally freaked out when my snake's eyes turned grey, I thought it was sick until I looked it up on the internet...not Wikipedia. So does anyone have any suggestions about what to specifically put under this section? Thanks! --Pankie (talk) 04:22, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Variations cleanup

Hello, I added a cleanup tag to the variations section for the following reasons

1) It is over half the length of the article 2) There are virtually no references 3) It may be overspecialized (possibly good information for wikibooks, etc. though)

Recommend selecting a fewer number of the common variations and locating references. Possibly set up something in wikibooks or another project for the purpose of describing variations, etc. or if it is important enough create a separate article. Jared555 (talk) 01:54, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

---

It might be a good idea as mentioned above to move detailed morph descriptions to an alternate page, as long as they are together in one place.

I have updated the *Pattern Mutations* section with more info on diffusion as the 'bloodred' entry is tailored more towards the selectively bred bright red bloods and not diffusion. I found Charle Pritzels description and history of Diffusion to be the most accurate, referenced accordingly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jim Eyre (talk • contribs) 23:37, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Breeding

South Florida doesn't really have a Winter Cooling. The practice is used by captive breeders to keep them in sync with their cycles, increase sperm count in males, save on the food bill, and get a couple months off of caring for the snakes. Some Corns breed just fine without being put down for the "winter". I'll let one of you Experts handle making the appropriate changes.:) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Falc (talk • contribs) 15:28, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Use of cedar as a substrate

Cedar and Pine are both widely known as toxic to many varieties of reptiles including corn snakes. A note of this should be made in the vivarium seciton. [[3]] [[4]] --Elgringo18 17:10, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

i can show you this site- http://www.hybridhaven.net/index.php there is a list of Colubrid hybrids, including some corn hybrids. i edited hybrids , but they repeat "integrades". there are no integrade corn snakes, to my knowledge — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spinnin tom (talk • contribs) 21:48, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Intergrades

I removed Intergrades as it contained nothing about an intergrade snake. Even if it did there is no reason to have it when there is a list of hybrids, which an intergrade is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.155.189.229 (talk) 04:18, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Pantherophis vs. Elaphe

Previous statements on generic taxonomy were odd and/or out of date:

"Further taxonomic controversy has included the taxonomic suggestion that the genus be changed to Pantherophis, (Utiger et al. (2002) Russian Journal of Herpetology 9(2): 105–124) but this was rejected by Crother et al. in (2003) Update. Herp. Rev. 34: 196-203. The International Committee for Zoological Nomenclature has not endorsed the change to Pantherophis, thus the correct genus remains Elaphe."

The list maintained by the Society for the Study of Amphibians and Reptiles by Crother et al. currently recognizes corn snakes in Pantherophis, so this objection is no longer valid. However, if wikipedia wants to follow the SSAR list, Pantherophis guttatus should also be used here in the narrow sense, with Pantherophis emoryi and Pantherophis slowinskii as separate species. Personally I would not advocate following this change (and creating new pages &c. for those "species" is more effort than I feel like putting in at the moment), but I've added a mention of it to the page.

As for the statement regarding the International Committee for Zoological Nomenclature, this was both unreferenced and misleading. The ICZN does not determine correct generic placements by endorsing specific changes. This statement seems to suggest a fundamental misunderstanding of how taxonomy works. I've simply removed it.

Also note that other pages for species of Pantherophis (P. obsoletus, P. vulpinus, P. bairdi) have similar issues, rejecting Pantherophis on the basis of outdated SSAR listings and/or similar commentary about the ICZN. I may change these as well. Paalexan (talk) 20:06, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

FWIW, there's been a new introduction of opinionated nonsense into this part of the article. Whoever is at 69.232.199.248 and 69.232.199.150 stuck in a few sentences that boil down to "I don't like this new-fangled phylogenetics and I don't like Utiger et al.! We need to stick with the taxonomy I grew up with in the 1950s!" Obviously this editor is free to hold these opinions, but this is hardly the place for it. Splenetic venting is better suited to a blog. I suggest treating any future changes by 69.232.199.x as vandalism to be reverted immediately.Paalexan (talk) 09:15, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for cleaning that up. Danger! ^{High voltage!} 22:16, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Not just Scotland

Live feeding is illegal throughout the whole UK. OK if i change it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.132.139.189 (talk) 18:56, 7 September 2007 (UTC) This is widely debated BUT its is NOT illegal to feed live prey items in the UK! It IS illegal to do it for fun or infront of an audience. But if the said snake is unhealthy due to refusing to eat frozen defrosted prey items then you can feed a live item, however it is not recommended for some of the reasons stated above. Most people in the UK do not need to try and feed live prey items to snakes as most are now captive bred and will freely east frozen defrosted warm rodents. you can read more about this here feeding live Skate WithoutIce (talk) 17:14, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Hybrids

the section about hybrids has a lot of information about hybrids in captivity. should it not just be kept to natural hybrids?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Spinnin tom (talk • contribs) 21:53, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Poisonous?

The first thing people want to know about any snake is whether it's poisonous or not. Is a corn snake poisonous? Why isn't this info in the article? Basics!17:13, 16 April 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.152.130.45 (talk)

I agree. But I think you mean "Venomous"?

I assume these snakes are nonvenomous, but it does not say so anywhere in the article! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.129.129.173 (talk) 19:34, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Corn Snakes are non-venomous but if bitten you may end up with a nasty headache. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 105.236.168.208 (talk) 10:02, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Caring For them

In the section 'Corn Snakes as Pets', it merely describes breeding and the way they look. If it would be fine, please add information on feeding rate, in captivity and in the wild, light, how to hold them, and how to, in general, care for them in captivity.

Thanks.

November 26th, 2006

You will find the link at the bottom of the page for "Corn Snake Care Sheet" extremely informative and comprehensive. As it stands the article is a good overview of the subject. I own a three-year-old corn snake. Jelly Catullus 16:56, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

My personal experience says to wait until the snake starts "hunting" for food around the cage, for a day or two, then feed. This may only be once a month or so depending on the meal size. This strategy kept my red rat snake alive for 24 years of captivity (the snake was captured as an adult), so the maximum captive age datum is too low as well. Since this is "original research" I won't edit the main article. Tomligon (talk) 20:02, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

I have found that feeding once a week or once ever two weeks to be best as snakes will generally eat every few days in the wild. This I have found works best with both my corn and king snake. I have no references to go by as this is just my personal experience. Misty View (talk) 10:15, 22 February 2014 (UTC)Misty_ViewMisty View (talk) 10:15, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

The position of every one to two weeks is supported by most online guides and care books as well as my own personal experience with my corn snake. I can vet references if you'd like. LavaSnake (talk) 12:32, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Origins of name corn snake

The page's assertion that the name corn snake must derive from the fact that corn cribs attract mice and mice attract snakes is obvious to anyone who's ever spent time on a farm. The problem is the books on corn snakes all attribute the name to the patterns on the snake's hide, which is strange since the patterns look nothing like corn. This section needs an actual online attribution to finish off this controversy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Czei (talk • contribs) 05:39, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

"The problem is the books on corn snakes all attribute the name to the patterns on the snake's hide, which is strange since the patterns look nothing like corn."

The things do look like maize, or Indian corn. Also, if books on corn snakes all say it, then why are we asserting to the contrary while looking for an attribution instead of just asserting what can be attributed? Furthermore, if the name origin is in dispute, why isn't that in the text? Seems to me, someone with an opinion is bent on filtering this. Cpurick (talk) 05:18, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Albino morph

This article uses the word "albino" but does not define it. Alternatively, there are several possibilities which could be discussed - see Albanism in biology. It also seems strange that there is no discussion of albino in the "Colour morphs" section.__DrChrissy (talk) 18:06, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Common name

I reverted a good faith edit which had formed the name "cornsnake" in the infobox. Afterward, I thought to check and pulled the following ngram which confirms that this article is at the correct title per common name policy.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 01:25, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

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Classification

S C Cheese (talk) 14:09, 7 August 2020 (UTC)"Molecular data have shown that corn snakes are actually more closely related to kingsnakes (genus Lampropeltis) than they are to the Old World rat snakes with which they were formerly classified." This is not consistent with the linked content in Pantherophis.

Undue weight in Intelligence and behaviour section

In regards to the recent good faith edit, I do believe too much focus has been put on the 1999 study, when the cited sources already there (from 2012 and 2014) are both more recent and receive far less detail. As per WP:DUEWEIGHT, consider cutting this down?―Novelyst (talk) 12:38, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Belly pattern

The lead section of the article describes the pattern of the belly scales. However, among the 11 pictures presented in the article, none of them show the belly. It would be nice to include such a photo in the article. — BarrelProof (talk) 16:08, 30 October 2020 (UTC)