Talk:Coraggio Italia

Title translation

Hi all. Again I think that the title translation from English to Italian is not the best. The meaning of "Coraggio Italia" in Italian is also an exhortation (sort of like: Italy, be brave!), which the name "Courage Italy" does not imply. So I am not sure that a translation can be done here, and I would keep the Italian name as a title. (Also in absence of English-language RS stating the name of this new group) --Ritchie92 (talk) 13:39, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 29 May 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) -- Calidum 14:52, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

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Courage Italy → Coraggio Italia – Practically inappropriate translation of the original name, the Italian name of the party cannot literally be translated into English, its meaning is: "Come on Italy" or "Cheer up Italy". Scia Della Cometa (talk) 12:12, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

• Support AFAICT the name "Courage Italy" is not actually used in English. Sources I was able to find just used the Italian name. (t · c) buidhe 17:45, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 18:34, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support --Broncoviz (talk) 11:39, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose While the Italian name would be consistent with Forza Italia and Forza Italia (2013), there is an easy, literal translation here. I am not even sure that the real meaning of the Italian name is "Come on, Italy", that is just the nominator's interpretation. --Checco (talk) 08:02, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

@Checco: Like Forza Italia, Coraggio Italia is not literally translatable into English. Courage Italy doesn't mean anything in English, it is a deviation of the name in Italian language which is instead an encouragement . It's like translating Forza Italia into "Force Italy" or "Strength Italy", it wouldn't mean anything...--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 08:43, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

I disagree. "Courage Italy" makes perfect sense in English as name/slogan. For instance, there is an organisation named "Courage International". Also, there are several organizations with similar name's structure, from "Hope UK" to "Charity USA", from "Caritas Canada" to "Net Success USA". That Coraggio Italia (or, better, Coraggio, Italia) is a mainly an exhortation is your interpretation and I am not convinced by it, especially having read an interview to mayor Luigi Brugnaro who mentioned "courage" multiple times, each and every time as a noun (i.e. the value). --Checco (talk) 17:38, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

The fact that we are talking about interpretation of the name means that the meaning of the name is not so unique. It seems to me a Forza Italia-style exhortation. Anyway, I await other opinions.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 18:48, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

• Support since also in this case we are seeing that a translation is not that simple. Also, note that the only English-speaking article talking about it does not translate the name [1]. --Ritchie92 (talk) 08:42, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nom. No need for unnecessary translation. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:13, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nominator --Vacant0 (talk) 16:56, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

English translation

@Checco, Nick.mon, Buidhe, Ortizesp, Broncoviz, Ritchie92, Necrothesp, and Vacant0: Hi all, I tagged you because you intervened in the move request or contributed to edit the page. Now that the page has been moved, I would like your opinion on which is the most correct translation of the Italian name. In Talk:List of political parties in Italy I expressed my perplexities about reporting on that page "Courage Italy" as the main translation. Indeed the name of this party seems to me evidently inspired by Forza Italia. That is, they are both exhortations that cannot literally be translated into English. ‎In my opinion Courage Italy does not convey the meaning of the Italian name, which in my opinion is "Cheer up Italy" (otherwise the name would have no meaning even in Italian). I think that the Courage Italy translation should not be shown above all on the List of political parties in Italy's page. For this party I would write the translation "Cheer up Italy" or better still I would remove the translations for parties like Forza Italia and Coraggio Italia from that page. Opinions on this topic? --Scia Della Cometa (talk) 21:20, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Scia Della Cometa, If an english translation is used it needs to be cited to a reliable source. See WP:V. (t · c) buidhe 21:55, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

@Buidhe: Indeed I also proposed to remove the controversial translation from that page.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 22:06, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

In each and every article on Italian parties, names are translated in the article's name (the majority of them) or in the lead section (an, unfortunately, growing minority). The literal translation of Coraggio Italia is "Courage Italy"—and it makes perfectly sense, per Courage International. There are very few English sources on the party, but some already use "Courage Italy" (see 1, 2, 3, etc.). That the name is inspired by Forza Italia and is intended as an exhortation is just a personal interpretation. "Courage Italy" should be definitely mentioned in this article as a plausible translation. --Checco (talk) 12:38, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm not convinced at all, I have the feeling that you are comparing two different contexts. Even the sources you have exposed do not seem too reliable on the translation of the name. I believe that especially on List of political parties in Italy there should be no potentially controversial translation. However, I also await the opinion of other users.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 13:09, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Those are English-language sources. More will come. I have added one more in the article.

I do not understand why should discuss continuously about everything (en.Wiki is resembling more and more it.Wiki), however, if you want to remove all translations from List of political parties in Italy, please propose it in that article's talk. --Checco (talk) 13:15, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm actually discussing the translation of this name and the opportunity of removing it in this and other pages, like List of political parties in Italy, so this is the right talk page. After all, if you want to avoid this kind of discussion, you don't necessarily have to participate.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 14:32, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

I feel the need to participate because all the issues you are legitimately raising affect articles I have worked on. This said, can I say that I am sorry to be investing more energies in discussions than articles? Some discussions like this are quite surprising to me: it is obvious that in an English encyclopedia names that are left in original language (a notion I oppose, but more and more common) have to be at least translated for the benefit of all readers. "Courage Italy" and "Cheer up, Italy" are both viable translations. The article is now named with the original Italian name, at least let's leave both viable translations so that readers can understand what the name is about, without going to Google Translate. --Checco (talk) 14:56, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

@Checco: It is you who wanted to replace Cheer up Italy with Courage Italy, otherwise I would not have even opened this thread to see the opinions of other users. If there is a difference of opinion, it seems to me more than normal to open a thread.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 15:24, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

@Checco: sorry but none of the sources you mentioned in this talk are a reliable source. At least one is obviously an article that has been google-translated. I also have doubts on the other ones. So I left only one of the sources (which IMHO is also not a reliable source for a well-established translation of a party name). --Ritchie92 (talk) 21:14, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Bahrain's state news agency mentioned the party as "Courage Italy" in English, source. Also is Corragio Italia a political coalition or a registered party? --Vacant0 (talk) 23:25, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

This is not exactly true: the article you mentioned calls the party with the Italian name Coraggio Italia and then translates it as "Courage Italy". I agree with this translation, but probably together with "cheer up Italy", because as an Italian the meaning that comes to my mind when I hear the name is a mixture of the two. Re: is Corragio Italia a political coalition or a registered party? the party does not appear yet in the official list of registered parties (but Cambiamo!, from which Coraggio Italia was formed, still does appear), so I guess it's too soon to say if it's registered or not; what is true is that CI is a registered group in the Chamber of Deputies, and a sub-component of the Mixed Group in the Senate. --Ritchie92 (talk) 07:16, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

@Vacant0: Coraggio Italia is not yet a registered party, formally it is still only a parliamentary group: indeed, neither the statute nor the offices of the party exist yet. The literal translation of Coraggio Italia is Courage Italy, it is also fine for me to point out the literal translation in this page, but I have opened this discussion to determine what its main translation is. Stating that Courage Italy is the main translation means that the name of the party is basically just "Courage" and that "Italy" is an addition to the name to denote its nationality. But in reality, terms like "Coraggio", like "forza" and "dai", in Italy also have an exhortative value ("Cheer up!", "Forward!", "Come on!"), this party derives from Forza Italia and its name seems to me to be clearly inspired by it. In my opinion, the interpretation of Checco given to the Italian name of the party does not have much meaning, and from this interpretation derives an equally poor in meaning translation. It would be like translating "Forza Italia" into "Force Italy"...--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 08:51, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

FWIW, I wouldn't object to "Courage Italy" as a translated party name, even if it's a bit unwieldy, as I generally support using translated English language names for political parties where possible. (Would "Courageous Italy" work as a translation, incidentally?)--Autospark (talk) 14:38, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

"Courageous Italy" has another meaning (Italia Coraggiosa), so it would not be a correct translation...--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 17:22, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

In Italy there are no registered parties per se. The given list includes only those parties who have applied for the so-called two per thousand (similarly to eight per thousand) and does not include (by choice) one of the largest parties, the Five Star Movement, and other established parties.

I am happy that other users are acknowledging that "Courage Italy" is a literal and perfectly valid translation, even though a little bit awkward in English (however, Courage International, Courage UK, etc.). I do not agree that "this party derives from Forza Italia and its name seems to me to be clearly inspired by it": that is just a personal interpretation. --Checco (talk) 18:24, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Party color

I think the color to use for this party should be fuchsia, not blue. The party itself is referred to as the fuchsia movement, which is not only the official color of the party but also the customary one. If no one is against it, I would change the color. If I am not wrong, it seems to me that User:Nick.mon wanted to use the current color (Indigo), but I honestly don't see why not to use the official color. Scia Della Cometa (talk) 18:58, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Ok, then I proceed.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 19:49, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Wow you gave WP community a 3 day ultimatum! So generous! Yakme (talk) 21:28, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

@Yakme Do you want to stop for once with this annoying sarcasm? Now you commented immediately, this means that you saw the discussion: what are you complaining about now?--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 05:55, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

I think that I mentioned this to you already multiple times. You can't impose your own timings and your lack of patience to everyone on WP. Giving just three days to the WP community to reply to a question on a talk page, and assuming that if nobody replied after 3 days then the matter is settled, is quite a stretch. At this point, for such a small detail just be bold and change the color, and see if anyone disagrees. Yakme (talk) 06:57, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Precisely, among other things, Wikipedia requires to be bold. I drew the attention of the user who wanted to use the indigo and I have not received any objections. In your view, how many weeks/months should I wait for such a basic change??? I just replaced the indigo with the real official party color, I didn't invent anything. I don't care if you feel personal grudge towards me, but avoid these useless controversies in the talk pages of the articles, please.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 07:29, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

I am actually asking you to be bold in cases like this, and avoid fake queries on talk pages when you don't have the patience to wait for people to reply. The courtesy response time on WP is usually a week or two, after which you can assume a silent consent from the community. Yakme (talk) 08:00, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

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