Talk:Concerto for Orchestra (Bartók)

A thanks

I would like to thank whoever wrote and contributed to this article. It has reminded me of what my teacher was trying to get through about the composition. I also refound Shostakovich. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.147.22.159 (talk) 18:21, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

IB Music Programme Exam

I think it would be worth noting that the IB organization uses this piece for the final exam in the Music SL course. --Nbmatt 21:43, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Additional Articles for Each Movement

Would it be relevant to create new additional articles for each individual movement, providing more specific analysis of the folk elements and Baroque models used throughout this work? Bartók's music is influenced by numerous sources of material and substantial information is available to warrant the creation of individual articles. --Michael 00:36, 7 June 2007 (GMT)

I don't think so; until the article becomes very long, all the movements should just be separate sections in this article. But they definitely need to be expanded. -- Cielomobile ^{talk / contribs} 08:05, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I'm going to start some major work on this article, and once I've made some good progress, each movement probably would warrant its own article. But it'll be quite some time until the article is at that point. -- Cielomobile ^{talk / contribs} 00:51, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Shostakovich 7th Symphony parody

I keep hearing that the fourth movement parodies the DSCH 7th but I have never found an original source confirming this. It is just something that is stated as though it were obvious fact. Could someone either add a citation for this or drop it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.180.44.133 (talk) 00:14, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

This is a widely cited "fact", and sources for it should not be at all difficult to find. However, Bartók did not himself ever confirm this thematic material was intended as a quotation of Shostakovich, and at least one recent author has contested it. I shall see whether I can quickly track this down, since the controversy is notable, I think.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:47, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

If one consults Benjamin Suchoff's 1995 book on this work (Bartók: Concerto for Orchestra - Understanding Bartók's World), one finds a good source for this assertion, viz. Antal Dorati who claimed Bartók told him that this theme was a caricature of the Leningrad Symphony, then enjoying more popularity than he felt it merited. The source is an article by Dorati in Tempo 136 (1981), p.12.

Also if one reads the full quote from Bartók's son (which Suchoff gives), it's not so much a matter as this being 'misinterpreted' as the article says as it being in itself contradictory: Peter Bartók recounts his father listening to a broadcast of the Leningrad Symphony and being 'quite surprised to hear such a theme...' (which he calls a Viennese cabaret song) 'used for such a purpose in such great abundance' but then he ends by saying 'Nevertheless, one thing is certain, my father was not quoting the symphony- he was quoting from a cabaret song.' So this can be used to support both sides. BTW, the reference in the article to Halsey Stevens' book does not say anything about 'misinterpretation' of Bartók's son but uses his testimony to support the view that it is indeed a Shostakovich parody.

As for it being an 'obvious fact', IMO no-one listening to this work could fail to miss the portrayal of mocking laughter which follows this theme. Why would Bartók bother to mock Lehár, especially as the contrasting lyrical theme also comes from an operetta (as Suchoff shows)? Despite's his son's final sentence, it seems to me much more likely (as Dorati said) that he intended to parody the Leningrad. Although Shostakovich's reputation as one of the 20th century's greats is firmly established (along with Bartók), critical and public opinion nowadays tend to agree with Bartók that the Leningrad is not one of his best works as Paul Griffiths says in his NYT piece which the article references.

So this is my case for retaining the Shostakovich parody reference (and improving it). If Jerome Kohl has found the recent author contesting this, I would be curious to know of it. Tiresias13 (talk) 11:09, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

67.180.44.133 (talk) 08:56, 4 March 2013 (UTC) "IMO no-one listening to this work could fail to miss the portrayal of mocking laughter which follows this theme. Why would Bartók bother to mock Lehár, especially as the contrasting lyrical theme also comes from an operetta (as Suchoff shows)?"

Here is a quote from Antal Dorati stating that Bartók himself told him that he did not know the "Merry Widow" but mocked Shostakovitch: http://www.laphil.com/philpedia/music/concerto-for-orchestra-bela-bartok — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.34.98.107 (talk) 13:04, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, very nice. This quotes the passage from Suchoff's book, itself quoting Dorati's Tempo article mentioned above.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:55, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

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Once again this falls under speculation taken as fact. Why did Beethoven write his strange notations in his last string quartets? ("Must it be?!?" It MUST be!" etc.) Who knows? We need to stay in the realm of fact, not what's "obvious" to someone. 67.180.44.133 (talk) 08:56, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for having dropped the ball on this. As Tiresias13 already has notes, Suchoff is as good a source as any. However, with respect to "no-one listening to this work could fail to miss the portrayal of mocking laughter which follows this theme", Suchoff's quote from Peter Bartók also includes (just before the bit about the citation being to a cabaret song, and not the Shostakovich symphony): "That the connecting bits represent laughter is only the product of my fantasy, as well as the assumption on my part that there would be any connection between our having heard the Shostakovich symphony during the war and the presence of the theme in the Concerto." Doráti's account, BTW, begins with his identification of the tune as coming from Lehár's Merry Widow (Danilo’s song, "Maxim's" from the first act), when Bartók asked him if he knew its origin. David Cooper, Bartók: Concerto for Orchestra (Cambridge and New York: Cambridge University Press, 1996), p. 54, accepts that Shostakovich was parodying Lehár, and that Bartók was likely to have recognised the tune from that source when he heard it repeated in the Shostakovich symphony. Cooper also cites a different explanation, given by Sándor via Fricsay: "In this reading, it is not the Shostakovich/Lehár music which is being ridiculed by the orchestra, but culture and civilization itself by a drunken mob who sing and play a debased music".—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:55, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

I've clarified the info and added some sources. I do not watch this page, so if anyone wants me to look in on this discussion again, please ping me or leave a note on my page. All the best! -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:24, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

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This matter has to be presented fairly, as there is no firm evidence (anecdotes aside) to "prove" that Bartók was parodying Shostakovich (unlikely, given his staunch anti-fascist stance) or Lehár. Somebody at some point has removed Halsey Stevens's important refutation of Dorati and Peter Bartók's anecdotes (Stevens, Halsey. 1964. The Life and Music of Béla Bartók, second edition) which puts the case for Lehár very strongly. I think the best thing that can be done is to say there is a dispute, and with encyclopedic balance leave it at that. As it stood, the article was "taking sides" and also making an implausible assertion about whether Bartók knew The Merry Widow or not (of course he did, and he knew his compatriot Lehár very well also). Hope this works for everyone. -- Zarzuelauk (talk) 18:29, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

IPO 70th Anniversary

A recording of this concerto, conducted by Zubin Mehta and recorded in 1976, is included in the Israel Philharmonic Orchetsra 70th Anniversary 12-CD box set, published 2006 by Helicon Records, on the 2nd CD.--Nahum (talk) 13:54, 24 October 2019 (UTC)