Talk:Comparison of Indonesian and Standard Malay/Archives/2023/October

earlier comments

A few thoughts on this topic:

• Indonesian is influenced by Sanskrit via Old Javanese. Malaysian is probably influenced by modern Indian languages, I'd guess. That must make for quite a few differences.

Actually, Indonesian are heavily influenced by javanese pronunciation. As we recall, old malay are written in Jawi, a writing script derived from arabic. However, unlike roman, the pronunciation of Jawi isn't standardized which led to various pronunciation of malay words. For example, the Karena and Kerana in Jawi spell the same. But karena is javanese pronunciation while those ethnic in Sumatra and peninsula spell kerana.141.213.240.242 08:41, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

• In Malay, "dosa" means a kind of Indian food - is that right? In Indonesia, dosa means sin. What is "sin" in Malay?

It's the same in Malay. The Indian bread you're talking about is spelt "thosai" in Malaysia, not "dosa".

- Nestum82 11:10, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Based on Dewan Bahasa & Pustaka, Kamus Dewan, "dosa" also means "sin".

- User:Zaidiutm 1612, 2005 Oct 12 (JST)

• Look at the ingredients on packaged food from Malaysia and from Indonesia. There are lots of differences, although the languages are still mutually intelligible. I can't recall the details now, but the Indonesian words Isi (contents) and terigu (wheat) are generally represented by different words on Malaysian food labels. An Indonesian would generally understand the words, but they are not the words an Indonesian would choose.

Indonesian insist upon creating a new language which belongs to Indonesian, and at the same time, Malaysia did the same. Therefore, surely these languages will reflect the local cultures. That's why there're differences in these two languages. What about bajak laut and lanun. Both are Indonesian and Malaysian but Bajak Laut is preffered over lanun. Why? Because Bajak Laut is widely used in Indonesian but in Malaysia, lanun is widely used.141.213.240.242 08:41, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

• The lack of a good Malaysian online dictionary makes it hard to make comparisons.

Try this link, this is the online dictionary and recognized by Dean Bahasa dan Pustaka Malaysia, but it's Malaysian. For English - Malaysian try this page141.213.240.242 08:41, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

• "o" in a Malaysian word sometimes becomes "u" in an Indonesian word, such as konci/kunci, meaning key. I don't know if this is a pronunciation difference, or just a historical difference in spelling. There is some info at http://www.spellingsociety.org/journals/j11/malay.php which I've quoted from here:

Malaysian spells kunci, not konci. What about coba (Indonesian) and cuba (Malaysian)? As i said just know, the similarity in Indonesian and Malay is when the languages is written in jawi. Both spelling will be the same (but for western borrowed words wouldn't be the same).But since Indonesian insisted on local pronunciation thus coba is favored.141.213.240.242 08:41, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

It just seems common for vowels to evolve as per people's existing usage starts to more strongly influence the "formal" language they use.

Some anecdotal examples...

- Go further to the east to the Philippines and you will see quite a number of Malay origin words used in the Philippine national language and also in their many local dialects, mostly using the "o" form rather than the "u" form (eg. ako, ko, mo, payong). However the Kapampangan dialect uses many more direct Malay words and they are all in the "u" form (aku, ku, mu, payung) yet when they borrowed the honorific tagalog word "po" it gets transformed back into "pu".

- In Eastern Java, the a's sometimes interchange with the o's so Surabaya interchanges with Suroboyo.

- karena vs kerana in Indonesian/Malaysian

- The word "kursi" from Persia, through to Arabia, into India, yet becomes kerusi in Malaysia but back to kursi again in Indonesia.

Maybe some of this happened because the traditional arabic language scripts had no vowel marks? (was Jawi the same?)

202.81.69.134 (talk) 10:54, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

The reform devised by Za'aba, a well-known Malay grammarian, replaced the vowel grapheme <u> with <o> in final closed syllables when the final consonant is represented by <k, h, ng> or <r>. It also replaced <i> with <e> in final closed syllables, where /k/ or /h/ is the final consonant. Examples are given in the table below:-

-

Wilkinson batuk jatuh burung bubur itik putih Za'aba batok jatoh burong bubor itek puteh English cough fall bird porridge duck white

Za'aba had no explanation for such changes. One could see that his uppermost consideration was the phonetic realisation of those words. Wilkinson was more concerned with the vowel harmony that should be represented in the orthography, and we should remember that the Soewandi system in Indonesia was similar to Wilkinson's in the treatment of the vowels in words such as those above.

Singkong2005 3 July 2005 13:22 (UTC)

But Za'aba's spelling is closer to standard Malayan pronunciation - I can't believe that before Za'aba Malayans said tujuh or bubur instead of tujoh or bubor. Andrew Yong 10:51, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

It can be hard to believe such a thing if you have grown up with and unconsciously moved along with the slowly evolving changes in the language. As a native English speaker who studied Indonesian, the hardest thing was to try to learn how to think more in terms of how the Indonesians actually use their language and not to translate concepts literally from English to Indonesian. Now having been to Malaysia many times, imagine my surprise when I see public signage and advertisements in Malaysian that read as if they were written in English first and then literally translated! Obviously it would seem to be the British influence but probably not so noticeable to those who live within the country 202.81.69.134 (talk) 10:54, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Suggestion for legibility

I think that that this page should start with a short introduction to what Malay and Indonesian are, how they are related, where they are spoken, when they were born, what are their political statuses etc. Just so that an uneducated reader (like me) would understand what they are reading. -80.222.130.139 19:03, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I would say 'belakang' means back / hind as well in Malay. The 'belakang' of a person is his upper back, from waist to shoulder. To attack from 'belakang' is to attack from behind on any place on that person; his calves, buttocks, head or neck.

Federal or Negara kesatuan

I tought federal in Indonesian is Negara Kesatuan while the states in federation are negara-negara bagian141.213.240.242 08:12, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

IMO, Federal in Bahasa Indonesia is Negara Federal.
Negara Kesatuan are the Indonesian words for unitary state.
Andryono 02:43, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Tingkap and Jendela

Jendela is also a Malay word. It's derived from Portuguese when Portugal colonized Melaka (Part of Malaysia), and then the word spread through out the archipelago. Thus, it'd be wrong to say that Malay didn't use jendela.141.213.240.242 08:49, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

ugama and agama

Malay didn't use ugama anymore. It's agama. In fact, there're too many errors in the table. Hope the linguist of Indonesian or Malay can correct them.08:53, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and some of the spelling differences occur on unstressed syllables that are arguably subtle in speech if they exist at all. --173.48.191.11 (talk) 16:11, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

ampat and empat

I have removed this entry. the number four is "empat" in both Indonesian and Malay.

Latin cue

Before using universitas (and so other loanword using -as form) there was dispute among scholar about using universiti (derived from English form university) like Malaysian or keep Dutch form universiteit. So the dispute settled with using this one. Another popular Indonesian term for 'universitas' is 'perguruan tinggi'.

No, perguruan tinggi means all kinds of academic degree after high school, and Universitas is one kind of perguruan tinggi. The others are Akademi, Politeknik, Sekolah Tinggi, and Institut Tensa Februari (talk) 05:14, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Grammar

This article only shows the difference between Malay and Bahasa Indonesia in vocabulary, which only differentiates them as dialects. Maybe this article should also include differences in grammar.23prootie 07:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion they are really dialects (or variants). I don't know whether there are any grammar differences. In fact, I believe Sutan Takdir Alisjahbana is largely responsible for formulating the same grammar rules for both languages. Gombang (talk) 05:45, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Bogel

Does anyone have a source for bogel meaning short person in Indonesian. The indonesians I know (and the Kamus Indonesia Belanda (A.Theeuw)) knows this word as naked...

naked are bugil, bogel its true means short person this same as cebol but bogel some time refer person a bit cute this word are rare to use in written regular use in conversation like "bogel amat sih luhh" Daimond 14:47, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't know that bogel means short person. It must be local dialect, perhaps Betawi language. According to KBBI Daring (online dictionary from Pusat Bahasa), bogel means naked. Gombang (talk) 05:08, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

The word 'bogel' which means 'short' is Betawi languange and not considered as Indonesian language Ridwan Nurhayat (talk) 12:26, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I have removed bogel as false friends, but retain it in vocabulary differences section. I have added that the alternate meaning only known in Jakarta dialect though (which is often used in popular media). Gombang (talk) 06:58, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Apartment in Malay?

Apartment in Malay is apartmen? I think we rarely use apartmen, perhaps there is other words? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zack2007 (talk • contribs) 18:23, 19 December 2006 (UTC).

How about Rumah Pangsa? Acs4b 04:53, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Nope, Pangsapuri is the accurate Malay translation for the English word 'Apartment' --223.24.186.176 (talk) 12:31, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Hordeng/horden

as far i know there "kain horden", " beli kain horden di pasar baru". kain hordeng?Daimond 15:16, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

It is spelled 'gorden', isn't it ? Ridwan Nurhayat (talk) 12:34, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Title change suggestion

I suggest the title should be changed to "Differences between Malaysian Malay and Indonesian Malay" to render it more according the NPOV principle. Otherwise one would get the impression if as if there is a standard variant and a non standard variant of Malay. Meursault2004 10:22, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

hmm - actually, doesn't the suggested change actually suggest there is a standard and a non standard? I think the suggestion moves into POV territory whereas now it's fairly neutral. Maybe I've misunderstood your point - sorry. Merbabu 11:32, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Nah, Malay and Indonesian language is widely used to refer to two diff distinct modern languages, which rooted from the same language, Old Malay (this is how the language is laid out as). --Zack2007 02:50, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Well Indonesian is actually a Malay dialect while Malaysian Malay is also already far removed from Riau Malay, on which it is based. Meursault2004 09:06, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

accuracy and neutrality

This article seems inaccurate, especially when it comes to the words in the table. The description also seems a little bit indonesia-centric. I will try to make it more neutral. Syedhusni (talk) 00:32, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I have changed some of the lexical entries, especially for the Malay part. Please give your feedback or suggestions, thanks. Syedhusni (talk) 01:35, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Boleh

In Indonesian i think "boleh" also mean can/able. Does it also mean permissible? And isnt there another meaning: Welcome? When we pass by shops, the attendant will say "boleh, belanja". But not sure what they meant. kawaputra^torque 17:06, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, confirm the above. Serenity id (talk) 09:40, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

"Boleh" means "may" in the permissible sense. Since "may" and "can" are used both ways in English, they are often confused. The shop keeper was saying "[You] may shop", as a way of formally asking you to enter the shop, rather than saying "dapat belanja" meaning "[It is] possible [for you] to shop", as a way of letting you know that the store was indeed open. -- ☑ SamuelWantman 21:32, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

The influence of English

While the article says that many English words flooded into Indonesian from the 1970s, many of these words could well have been French-Dutch loanwords which were introduced before then - militer is probably from militair - Malay now uses militari, which is clearly from the English military.

Perhaps these words were from English, but Indonesianised, with words ending in -tion becoming words ending in -si, just as words ending in -ity became words ending in -itas. Words ending in -si tend to be Dutch rather than English loanwords, for example imigrasi in Indonesian is from Dutch immigratie whereas its Malay equivalent imigresen is from immigration, although Malay uses aksi (similar to Dutch actie).

There are instances of Malay adopting English words where Indonesian uses Arabic or Sanskrit ones - for example sains vs ilmu (although Indonesian now uses sains) and solar vs surya. While 'solar energy' in Malay can be either kuasa suria, tenaga suria or tenaga solar, Indonesian uses energi surya, which is similar to Dutch zonne-energie, literally 'sun energy'. Quiensabe (talk) 21:07, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Lead

The lead is supposed to be a summary of the article. We shouldn't need any refs there. I'll let the restored claims sit for a while, but if they're not developed into the text, I'll remove them again.

Also, the vocab comp should be removed. It belongs in Wikt, not here. — kwami (talk) 14:31, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm the one that into preservation of data instead of deleting or removing things, especially those I find as facts as a native speaker. Moved some sentences in question from lead to perception section. Vocab comparison should stay, it is interesting and important data worth to be saved. Yet, if you think it is not belongs to the article at least moved (and linked) to a new list article (such as: List of Malaysian and Indonesian vocabulary comparison), however I find it unnecesary.Gunkarta (talk) 15:12, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Please read WP:Lead and WP:Not a dictionary. A few examples would be fine, but otherwise this is what Wiktionary is for. It doesn't matter so much IMO if stubs are a mishmash, but this article is developed enough that it should be an actual encyclopedia article. — kwami (talk) 00:55, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

KBBI

Many Indonesian words meaning in the table is not right according to Kamus Besar Bahasa Indonesia or the Great Dictionary of Indonesian language. Like in the false friend, the word "ahli" gave two meaning in Indonesian, the first one is expert in some field and the second is also member. And "banci" is a word for census too in Indonesian. Some words have more than one meaning, because we loan them from more than a language. I guess anyone who write this doesn't use the KBBI as source. Mbee-wiki (talk) 02:19, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

Borrowings from English language

In the The influence of English section, I don't think Indonesian borrowed that much from English. Well, maybe, but they're so rarely used. For example Cavalry. Heck even I didn't know that we've borrowed Kavaleri from English; we usually use Pasukan Berkuda. And then Claim, yes we're using Klaim but we're also using Tuntutan, and it's (far) more common. There's two words for translation of words from English, the first being borrowing, and the second is native. And it doesn't mean we use borrowed words more often than the native ones. Somebody needs to fix this.

And the Indonesian words is so poor. Please base yourselves on Kamus Besar Bahasa Indonesia to refer a word. Andrean182 (talk) 22:32, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

What is used rarely?

In the Perception section: "In Indonesia, 'Indonesian Malay' refers to the Malay spoken by the Malay people in Indonesia, that is, to Malay as a regional language in Sumatra, though it is rarely used."

I've added the clarify template. What is used rarely? The term 'Indonesian Malay' or Malay as a regional language in Sumatra? Or both, for that matter?

Thisisnotatest (talk) 07:01, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

I think it refer to both; the term 'Indonesian Malay' is actually rarely used in Indonesia, because today Indonesians seems to emphasize the differences between modern Indonesian and Malay (despite closely related to almost intelligible). It simply either Indonesian or Malay; two different languages. Indonesians seems to treat them as two distinct (yet related) language entity. Also Malay as regional language (or dialect to be precise) spoken in Sumatra is rarely used in national stage (national media, TV, newspaper), its previous function as archipelago's lingua franca was replaced by Indonesian instead. In Indonesia, Malay is a native regional language in the provinces of Riau, Riau Islands and Jambi, and it is quite widespread there (but not on national stage), and actually it is more closer to Malay spoken in Johor and Malacca. Hope that help. Gunkarta  talk  07:39, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

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dialects of one language

Sounds like they're actually dialects of one language.

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EQUAL "teori kekacauan" for both languages

Today for "Chaos (theory)" the table has "teori kekacauan" for both languages, with no difference, a clear error relatively to the purpose of showing differences. Alexor65 (talk) 14:13, 20 March 2023 (UTC)