Talk:Colombian Spanish

Notability

A tag regarding the notability of the slang terms had been placed and removed. Please note that some of those expressions are not widely used in Colombia and some might have a different meaning in other areas.User:Camilo Sanchez —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 22:34, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

"Usted"

Most people in Bogotá use "tú" when speaking to strangers. Interestingly, when talking with very close relatives such as parents, siblings or spouses, "usted" is used more frequently in certain regions. I think this is wrong, the Usted is used almost always, specially when talking to strangers. Im changing it.--Canislupusarctos (talk) 11:52, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I completely agree with Canislupusarctos, everybody knows in Colombia and abroad that the interior of the country is a "usted" region while the Costa is a tuteo area, although situations impose the actual use. People in Bogotá tend to address strangers or friends as "tú" in an attempt to be in accordance with the widespread use of "tú" throughout America and Spain, except for the highlands of the continent (México, Los Andes), thus ignoring this is an an exceptional trait (the usted addressing) that should be preserved and that constitutes a strong particularity of their dialect.--Jdvillalobos (talk) 16:23, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

First hand experience visiting Bogotá and discussions with several locals has caused me to doubt the accuracy of this statement. I will tag it as dubious/discuss. Room317 (talk) 02:08, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

I disagree with you Room317, I was born in Bogota, and the statement is completly accurate, most of the people use "usted" when talking to close people and also to strangers. "Tu" is often used among young people, young females talking to young females and young males talking to young females. --24.193.16.185 (talk) 05:17, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I was also born in Bogota, but I desagree. Actually it's both depending on the area of the city and the social class. Upper classes favour tú. And I say this because I've seen it in many publications, not making it up, for instance 'Meaning and Universal Grammar: Theory and Empirical Findings', Volume 1, By Cliff Goddard, Anna Wierzbicka... you can see it in google books.--86.176.36.25 (talk) 21:28, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

[b] vs. [β]

The occlusive consonants /b, d,g/ /b/ ("b" or "v"), /d/ ("d") and /g/ ("g" or "gu") in the general Spanish have allophonic changes when pronounced after other consonant becoming fricatives. This phenomenon does not happen in Colombian Spanish, remaining occlusives. For example: “the donkey” (El burro) is pronounced [el'bu.ro] in Colombia, but [el'βu.ro] in the rest of America and Spain. A notable exception is the Costeño people of the Colombian coastline. I think this information is mistaken.The standard practice of Spanish speakers the world over (and especially Spain) is to resort to a plosive [b] after consonants so that "el burro" is pronouced [el'buro] as opposed to "la burra" [la'βura]. In most cases, when speaking carefully one pronounces the [b], while when speaking rapidly it comes out [β]. That's not to say that this is a Colombian trait, but a Spanish-speaking one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.172.43.200 (talk) 23:22, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

When speaking carefully I don't use gemination in saying the words "back kick", but otherwise, in normal speech, I pronounce it geminated [ˈbækːɪk].This isn't about how people speak when they are trying to enunciate and make themselves understood, it's about describing the allophonic changes that occur in normal speech. You are incorrect in saying that it is a standard practice across the world to keep /b/, /d/, and /g/ as plosives after some consonants like /b/, /d/, /g/, /l/, /r/, /v/, etc... Nearly all of the Spanish speaking world does have this allophonic change (/b/,/d/, and /g/ to [β̞], [ð̞] and [ɰ]). But, as the article states quite succinctly and correctly, this doesn't happen in some areas like Colombia, El Salvador, and a few others. It remains a plosive when other dialects pronounce them as approximants. El bello - [el'beʝo], El dardo - [el'daɾdo], Vulgar - [bulgar]. The article is correct and there's no reason for the dubious tag.--Drizzitdudden (talk) 07:30, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Would someone please explain the "lack of intonation" thing in rolo? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.46.200.167 (talk) 08:02, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

B sound

Not true- In Nicaragua the B sound is even much stronger. So Colombia is not an exception. Strongest B is in Nicaragua while strongest V is in Chile. Nicaragua "como te BBa ? " how are you doing ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.168.130.226 (talk) 21:32, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

'Rolo or Bogotá dialect'

I suggest the title of this section should be changed. Just: 'Bogotá'. It should be explained that Rolo and Cachaco are two different accents. The northern part of the city used to speak Cachaco and the southern Rolo. Now a days the two have mixed, but the difference can be still perceived in northern and southern towns in neighbouring Cundinamarca. Cachaco can be heard in towns like Subachoque or Sopó, and Rolo in Soacha or Fusagasugá. Unfortunately I don't remember the source of this information. Does some one know anything about this? --86.176.36.25 (talk) 21:36, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

== Costa Rica was never part of Gran Colombia" Costa Rica got Independence due to the Mexican War of Independence and then the failed Mexican Empire. It was never part of Gran Colombia. Removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.91.13.131 (talk) 21:22, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "chévere"?

Why is it necessary to explain the pronunciation of "chévere"? Does the spelling really include a silent vowel? What is the phonetic significance of the uppercase C? If the pronunciation is really different from what is indicated by the spelling, maybe IPA notation would be appropriate. Kotabatubara (talk) 13:37, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

"The clearest Spanish"?

Claims like the recently added one that Colombian Spanish is "the clearest, most widely-understood form of Spanish" have a strong flavor of boosterism, as opposed to linguistics. For one thing, "Colombian Spanish"—as this article itself testifies—exhibits great diversity from one region to another. The online newspaper article cited in support of the claim refers first to "Colombian Spanish" and later to the speech of Bogotá, as if they were interchangeable. The news article describes Bogotá Spanish as "state-of-the-art", an adjective previously applied only to commercial products. It is said to be "spoken crisply and cleanly", "easy on the ears", "neutral" compared to other varieties which are said to have a "sing-song quality" and to be "very aggressive". It is described as having "no strong accent", and "even academics in Spain agree that Colombian Spanish is the best." All these expressions are subjective terms that mean nothing in linguistics. All dialects have intonation, and "sing-song" means nothing more than an intonation that attracts attention by being different from one's own. The journalist says Colombian Spanish has "not much slang"—but our Wiki article has a whole section on slang with copious examples! I'm not denying that there are popular beliefs about the prestige of Bogotá Spanish, but—can't we find a source that describes these attitudes in something like objective terms? Kotabatubara (talk) 00:36, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Slang Words

In this Article there are many words, that the people say them in Colombia (Some of those words, in my life I've never heard of them , and I'm a Colombian Citizen), but I think that those words are totally out of the concept of an online encyclopedia.

I edited this article, and erase some of the words that, not only are offensive, also make a bad figure of what Colombia really is.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.99.235.7 (talk) 01:58, 17 February 2013 (UTC) It Efectivos (talk) 19:02, 24 August 2020 (UTC)FD

Yeísmo, definition

I edited the parenthesis after "yeísmo" from "a merger of /ʎ/ toward a strong /ʝ/" to "a merger of /ʎ/ into /ʝ/". Normally we speak of a merger of A and B or a merger of A with B. In the case of yeísmo, we want to say (1) that the two phonemes are merged and (2) that the resulting phoneme is nonlateral, that is, more /ʝ/ than /ʎ/. "Toward" suggests movement in the direction of something, without arriving. I chose "into" as a more accurate way of saying the merger results in a /ʝ/ phoneme. I deleted "strong" because (1) alone, it is not a defined term in phonetics or phonology, and (2) if it implies prominent air friction, then it is a phonetic detail, not relevant to the definition of a phonological merger. My guess is that it is a way of saying the resulting phoneme is realized as a fricative consonant, rather than the frictionless glide [j]. If there is a need to express this here, it might be done—after the parenthesis—with a phrase like "usually articulated with audible air friction". P.S.: I see this note was unsigned and not dated. I don't remember writing it, but it sounds like something I would say, so I will sign it until someone else claims it. Kotabatubara (talk) 22:30, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

"Que" to introduce main clause

In the section “Common expressions” there is a note that speakers sometimes begin an independent clause with “Que”, as if delivering a third-party message. Today a note was added that the same can be heard in Puerto Rican Spanish and in a variety of Occitan! I heard it on the soundtrack of the movie ’’El norte’’, set in Guatemala. Its credentials as a uniquely Colombian expression seem doubtful. I suggest the whole paragraph be deleted. Kotabatubara (talk) 22:30, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Gran Colombia

The article's final statement, about Gran Colombia, is (1) out of place (seeming to be under the heading "Island dialect"), and (2) unclear in meaning. Does "were included" mean that the dialects of those present-day countries have been included in this article on dialects of present-day Colombia? Or does it mean that the dialects of those present-day countries used to be included, historically, in the category "Colombian Spanish" because "Colombia" referred to a larger territory 200 years ago? Kotabatubara (talk) 15:23, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

[ɹ] from British English?

The section "Island dialect" refers to the syllable-final alveolar approximant [ɹ] as due to influence from "British English". But present-day British English is notoriously "R-less" in syllable-final position. Does this statement refer to a British pronunciation of a few centuries ago? If you know about this, please edit to clarify. Kotabatubara (talk) 18:49, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

The same section refers to "[the] British invasion" and "[the recovery] of Spanish control". Pardon my ignorance; I don't find the word "British" in History of Colombia. When was that invasion? Can someone who knows both Colombian history and standard English please attend to that? Kotabatubara (talk) 14:41, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Español colombiano

I reverted "castellano colombiano" to "español colombiano" because (1) the map that is included in Names given to the Spanish language indicates that "español" is the preferred term in Colombia itself, and (2) the Google Ngram Viewer indicates that "el castellano colombiano" appears zero times in books published in Spanish. In fact, even where the map shows "castellano" to be the preferred term (when unmodified), the Viewer still shows "el español argentino" more frequent than "el castellano argentino", and likewise for "chileno". Kotabatubara (talk) 02:32, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Contradiction?

Mahmudmasri: You've indicated that there is a contradiction in the section on consonant phonology. Please specify exactly what contradicts what. I don't see it. Kotabatubara (talk) 00:21, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

@Kotabatubara: The reason he gave was One section says stops are not fricatized, the other says notates words as fricatized!. @Mahmudmasri:, do you want to expand upon that? Mr KEBAB (talk) 17:02, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

I have nothing else to say, other than the sentence under #Phonology, starting with "The voiced consonants /b/, /d/, and /ɡ/" claims something that negates the table under #Vowels. The Bogota pronunciation is represented with fricatives, while the previous sentence said it does not have those fricatives. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 19:41, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Anachronism

Why is the article on Colombian Spanish illustrated with a manuscript from the 13th century? Please, someone, provide a more appropriate replacement! Kotabatubara (talk) 01:56, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Voiced sibilant?

The first paragraph of the phonology section gives examples in which the /s/ phoneme is voiced ([ˈkʰɛzo], [kʰɔˈzina]). Is this typical of Colombia generally, or does it refer to a limited region? Kotabatubara (talk) 23:51, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Incorrect or Outdated info

"Much of the population in Colombia, especially in Bogotá, is known for using usted (the second-person singular pronoun considered formal in most varieties of Spanish) between friends, family members, and others whose relationship would indicate the use of tú or vos in most other dialects."

This information needs more modern sources, from what I've seen it is incorrect. 186.102.79.194 (talk) 20:40, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

And what is the correct information? --Jotamar (talk) 23:12, 24 September 2022 (UTC)