Talk:Clive Caldwell

Untitled

Can we have an explanation for the term "aerial gunnery deflection" which appears in this article?

Perhaps military types could help out.

Thanks.

G.

--Gibberer 02:51, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

References

At the very least the references should be accurate and complete, I can live with a notes and reference section. Bzuk 12:55, 7 May 2007 (UTC).

That's part of the point. The refs are not correct now. RAAF Historical Section authored Units of the Royal Australian Air Force, it's not part of the volume. And RAAF Darwin is a chapter of that volume. I'm not sure what your issue is with the cite book template, which is a simple way of rendering things consistently. Cheers, Ian Rose 15:29, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't note that, I will make the correction, as to the cite templates, they are based on an adaption of the APA (American Psychological Association) rather than the more common MLA (Modern Language Association) style guide. These templates were provided as a guide and the MLA style is often used by editors such as myself. Bzuk 16:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC).

Infobox images

Insert image width (defaults to 180x180px if empty) is the recommended size for infoboxes although most editors choose 200px as a convenient standard. See other biographies- Charles Lindbergh, Amelia Earhart, Baron Von Richtofen. The reason for this size is to ensure that the image does not "stretch" the infobox too much and that it not overwhelm the page. The WP:Aircraft group also recommends that no "hardcoding" of image sizes occurs. Bzuk 13:11, 7 May 2007 (UTC).

Fair enough. I'm not too fussed on that one, being one of those that tend to choose 200px for convenience, as you say. 250 was big but 150 looked a bit titchy... Cheers, Ian Rose 15:19, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Recent additions

Guys, coupla' quick questions...

• Bzuk, what exactly's your reasoning behind the sic in "[i]t's (sic) your life or theirs."?
• Grant, are we sure all of the citations attributed to p.25 of Alexander actually belong there? Pretty sure many do but it seems an awful lot for one page, I don't remember the typeface being that small...!

Cheers, Ian Rose 11:52, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Very minor point, and I am certainly not wedded to it but "t's" is a colloquialism and actually was first written as a correction [i]t's, and that is why I used (spelling incorrect- sic) as a standard designation when a nonstandard usage of a word appears. FWIW Bzuk 12:37, 11 September 2007 (UTC).

Yep, figured it must be the "[i]". Reckon [i]t's all Grant's fault then... ;-) The exact quote from Caldwell in Alexander was "It's your life or theirs." Grant, I think you put in the "[i]" because I'd used the quote as part of a sentence. Personnally I reckon it works better to use the original "It's..." and avoid any need to use sic as well... Cheers, Ian Rose 13:08, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, change effected. FWIW Bzuk 13:18, 11 September 2007 (UTC).

Ian, you are right on both counts. Thanks for pointing the reference thing out. I never have been able to get the hang of the "reflist" format. For the time being I have changed mine to ordinary old <ref>s Grant | Talk 15:41, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

DFC and Bar

The citations published in the London Gazette make it clear that the DFC was for the encounter with 2 Me109s, whilst it was only the Bar which was for shooting down 5 Ju87s, I've re-worded accordingly, I did leave the original cites in because I wasn't absoutley sure what they were supposed to be backing up. I also chagned the style used for quotations to meet WP:QUOTE. David Underdown (talk) 15:21, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Highest scoring P40 pilot

This claim is footnoted, but no sources for the scores are given, ideally their should be a source which definitively lists Caldwell as such, or we're verging on Original research. David Underdown (talk) 17:16, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Collaboration with a view to GA/A/FA

Nick-D and I are planning to work on getting this article to FA standard. While I believe we have access to all the important sources, naturally we welcome additional input. If we can discuss any proposals here rather than just going into the article, it will help us avoid tripping over ourselves. At this stage, the division of labour Nick and I have discussed is myself primarily working on the intro, early life, and North Africa, and Nick on the Pacific, and later life.

For a start, I'm listing the existing bibliography and noting access to same, as well as adding a few more that I've used in the past on similar articles; also adding links to additional images. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:20, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Bibliography

• Alexander, Kristen. "Cleaning the augean stables". The Morotai Mutiny?. Sabretache. Military Historical Society of Australia, 2004.
  • Online. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:20, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
• Alexander, Kristen. Clive Caldwell: Air Ace. Crows Nest, Australia: Allen & Unwin, 2006. ISBN 1-74114-705-0.
  • Nick owns copy I believe; I can access at Mitchell Library. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:20, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
    • Yes, I own this Nick-D (talk) 07:06, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
• Brown, Russell. Desert Warriors: Australian P-40 Pilots at War in the Middle East and North Africa, 1941–1943. Maryborough, Queensland, Australia: Banner Books, 2000. ISBN 1-875-59322-5.
• Musciano, Walter. "Killer Caldwell: Australia's Ace of Aces." Air Progress Volume 19, No. 3, September 1966.
• Odgers, George. The Royal Australian Air Force: An Illustrated History. Brookvale, Australia: Child & Henry, 1984. ISBN 0-86777-368-5.
  • I can access at Mitchell Library. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:20, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
    • I own a copy and it's also online (of course) Nick-D (talk) 07:06, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
      • This is online? Tell me where! I thought you might be confusing it with Odgers' Air War Against Japan... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:52, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
        • Um, yes I was. It's not online. Nick-D (talk) 07:07, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
• Pentland, Geoffrey. The P-40 Kittyhawk in Service. Melbourne, Victoria, Australia: Kookaburra Technical Publications Pty. Ltd., 1974. ISBN 0-85880-012-8.
• RAAF Historical Section, "RAAF Base Darwin", in Units of the Royal Australian Air Force: A Concise History. Volume 1: Introduction, Bases, Supporting Organisations. Canberra, Australia: Australian Government Public Service, 1995. ISBN 0-64442-792-2.
  • I can access this collection at Mitchell Library. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:20, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
    • I think that I own this Nick-D (talk) 07:06, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
      • Heh, ten volumes and you don't know if you have it somewhere...?! BTW, you know I wrote a few of the entries in this, don't you? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:52, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
        • I do own a stupid number of books... I just checked and I own this volume. I also just spotted you listed as one of the contributers. Nick-D (talk) 09:41, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
• Shores, Christopher. Aces High – Volume 2: A Further Tribute to the Most Notable Fighter Aces of the British and Commonwealth Air Forces in World War II. London: Grub Street, 1999. ISBN 1-902304-03-9.
  • I can access Volume 1 at Mitchell Library. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:20, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
• Stephens, Alan. The Royal Australian Air Force: A History. London: Oxford University Press, 2006. ISBN 0-19555-541-4.
  • I own a copy. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:20, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
    • Ditto Nick-D (talk) 07:06, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
• Watson, Jeffrey. Killer Caldwell. Sydney, Australia: Hodder, 2005. ISBN 0-73361-929-0.
  • Not as thorough as Alexander's book from what I gather, but as the only other full-length bio it obviously needs to be consulted -- can access at Mitchell Library. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:20, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
• Weal, John. Jagdgeschwader 27 'Afrika'. London: Osprey Publishing, 2003. ISBN 1-841765-38-4.

Others that may prove useful are:

• Garrisson, A.D. (1999). Australian Fighter Aces 1914–1953. Fairbairn, ACT: Air Power Studies Centre. ISBN 0642265402.
  • Not quite as reliable in my experience as Newton (below) but might be useful for cross-checks -- online. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:20, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
• Gillison, Douglas (1962). Australia in the War of 1939–1945: Series Three (Air) Volume I – Royal Australian Air Force 1939–1942. Canberra: Australian War Memorial. OCLC 2000369.
• Herington, John (1954). Australia in the War of 1939–1945: Series Three (Air) Volume III – Air War Against Germany and Italy 1939–1943. Canberra: Australian War Memorial. OCLC 3633363.
• Odgers, George (1968) [1957]. Australia in the War of 1939–1945: Series Three (Air) Volume II – Air War Against Japan 1943–45. Canberra: Australian War Memorial. OCLC 246580191.
  • The relevant official histories should be utilised, particularly for context -- online. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:20, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
• Helson, Peter (2006). "Ten Years at the Top" (PDF). University of New South Wales. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help)
  • A study of Air Marshal George Jones, with details of the Morotai Mutiny -- online. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:20, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
• Newton, Dennis (1996). Australian Air Aces. Fyshwick, ACT: Aerospace Publications. ISBN 1875671250.
  • Appears to be the definitive study of Australian aces, goes into claim-by-claim analyses of some of the top scorers -- I can access at Mitchell Library. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:20, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
• Newton, Dennis (1996). Clash of Eagles. Kenthurst, NSW: Kangaroo Press. ISBN 0864177933.
  • Same author as above, detailed analysis of Australian combat missions in North Africa and elsewhere -- I can access at Sydney City Library. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:20, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
• Thomas, Andrew (2005). Tomahawk and Kittyhawk Aces of the RAF and Commonwealth. Oxford: Osprey. ISBN 9781841760834.
  • Again may be useful for cross-checks -- I should be able to access at a library. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:20, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
• Wilson, David (2005). The Brotherhood of Airmen. Crows Nest, NSW: Allen & Unwin. ISBN 1741143330.
  • Same chap who edited Units of the Royal Australian Air Force: A Concise History at the old RAAF Historical Section, may be useful for cross-checks -- I should be able to access at a library. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:20, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
• I don't think we need cite his service record or the court martial proceedings as it's all dealt with by secondary sources, but no reason they shouldn't stay as external links. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:20, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

or written out as:

• Garrisson, A.D.Australian Fighter Aces 1914–1953. Fairbairn, ACT: Air Power Studies Centre, 1999. ISBN 0642265402.
• Gillison, Douglas. Australia in the War of 1939–1945: Series Three (Air) Volume I – Royal Australian Air Force 1939–1942. Canberra: Australian War Memorial, 1962. OCLC 2000369. .
• Herington, John. Australia in the War of 1939–1945: Series Three (Air) Volume III – Air War Against Germany and Italy 1939–1943. Canberra: Australian War Memorial, 1954. OCLC 3633363.
• Odgers, George. Australia in the War of 1939–1945: Series Three (Air) Volume II – Air War Against Japan 1943–45. Canberra: Australian War Memorial, 1968, First edition 1957. OCLC 246580191.

• The relevant official histories should be utilised, particularly for context, online:

• Helson, Peter. Ten Years at the Top. Sydney Australia: University of New South Wales, 2006.
• Newton, Dennis. Australian Air Aces. Fyshwick, ACT: Aerospace Publications, 1996. ISBN 1-87567-125-0.
• Newton, Dennis. Clash of Eagles. Kenthurst, NSW: Kangaroo Press, 1996. ISBN 0-86417-793-3.
• Thomas, Andrew. Tomahawk and Kittyhawk Aces of the RAF and Commonwealth. Oxford, UK: Osprey, 2005. ISBN 978-1841760834.
• Wilson, David. The Brotherhood of Airmen. Crows Nest, NSW: Allen & Unwin, 2005. ISBN 1-74114-333-0.

Images

The infobox portrait at the moment is an excellent shot, more thoughtful-looking than the usual Caldwell image, but for that reason I'm not sure it's the one for the infobox (though I think it should definitely appear somewhere in the article). Something a bit more representative of his public image might be more appropriate, such as the one currently in the South West Pacific section, but I'm interested in opinions before changing anything.

Here are links to a few other images that could end up in the article somewhere, and a new infobox image may be among them:

North Africa, 1942 -- useful shot in front of a Kittyhawk, presumably in 250SQN RAF
North Afrcia, 1942 -- decent portrait, presumably same shoot as above
Northern territory, 1943 -- very Hollywood, but a good portrait that conforms to pulic image without being too well-known
July 1943 -- classic shot, perhaps too ubiquitous for the infobox but might be worthwhile elsewhere
July 1943 -- good portrait, presumably from same shoot as above, that again conforms to the image without being too well-known
Northern Territory, 1843 -- interesting for the beard, at least!
Darwin, 1944 -- no beard or moustache at all, just to be different...!
Northern Territory, 1944 -- rare shot of him in the same frame as a decent view of his Spit
Morotai, 1945 -- another interesting portrait, with a pet parrot no less!
...and then there are the pair of him in the Morotai Mutiny article, either of which might work here. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:20, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

If it wasn't for the parrot the last one would be a great choice for the infobox... The article should include a photo of Caldwell with a beard as this was how he looked for much of his time in Darwin (due to skin infections brought on by the tropical climate). Nick-D (talk) 07:10, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

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