Talk:Clementi, Singapore

Discussion

Some minor corrections have been done to the text and in addition, set the name for Clementi in Malay as "Clementi" as it is a name. Also, "Yusof Ishak Secondary School" has been removed since the school has since moved to Bukit Batok. Added though are National University of Singapore, NUS High School and the 3 Japanese schools. Also added information about a temporary interchange. Reference to "Commonwealth Ave" has been changed to "Commonwealth Ave West". Please take note that the previous reference to "Commonwealth Ave" is to a foreign street of the same name. --fauzi 20:04, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Is it possible to merge Clementi, Singapore with Clementi New Town? They seem alike and it would be confusing. --fauzi 01:49, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

There was actually a pending project for Singapore places, in which we needed to diffrentiate between a general place name and that of a specific new town. But we have yet to seriously embark on it, hence the half-hearted collection of similar-sounding articles. I do hope you may also contribute to this effort if you can? It will require quite alot of research I suppose, since it is usually not easy to find data on general place names.--Huaiwei 04:32, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Could we also have someone look into the history of the original Clementi Primary School I and II? I studied there till the end of 1963 (Pri 6A). I am still in touch with some of my old classmates. (J Idiculas, Sydney Australia).

Clementi etymology dispute

Instead of reverting, please discuss here. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 16:17, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

@Clithering: Could you please cite your sources here showing that it was named after Cecil Clementi and not Cecil Clementi Smith? --Lemongirl942 (talk) 16:19, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

According to historical sources in 1947, Clementi was named after Sir Cecil Clementi who passed away earlier in the same year. For more details, please refer to my edits which have been reverted just now. Feel free to discuss. --Clithering (talk) 16:20, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Just saw. Let me have a look. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 16:27, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Besides, Sir Cecil Clementi was rendered officially as "金文泰" in Chinese. A search in NewspaperSG suggests that the name "金文泰" first appeared in 1925, the year when Sir Cecil Clementi was appointed Governor of Hong Kong. It is highly unlikely that people back then would use "金文泰" to refer to Sir Cecil Clementi Smith. Lastly, in my view, if the area was named after Sir Cecil Clementi Smith, it should have been known as "Smith" instead of "Clementi" according to general naming convention. --Clithering (talk) 16:32, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Ah sorry, unfortunately I am not proficient in Chinese. However, there have been secondary sources which say that it is named after Cecil Clementi Smith. Brenda Yeoh's book, recent Straits Times report. Let me list down some sources below. If there are conflicting sources, both may need to be mentioned. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 16:45, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Sources

• Singapore Infopedia
• Straits Times 13 Oct 2015, (and related)
• Savage, Yeoh
• Straits Times 3 June 1989

It appears that all the contemporary secondary sources, including the entry in Singapore Infopedia and the sources you have cited, do not provide historical evidence to substantiate their claim. I doubt if the contemporary sources are citing each other. In view of the above, it is highly inadvisable to conclude Sir Cecil Clementi Smith as the one after whom Clementi was named.--Clithering (talk) 16:57, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I understand and I also suspect that they are quoting each other without citing. I will look more into this. However, to include the fact that it could also have been named after "Sir Cecil Clementi", we will need some secondary sources. Let me try looking up Dunlop's Street Name of Singapore. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 20:03, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Let me summarise my observations here:-

• According to the news report in Nanyang Siang Pau of 21 October 1947, "Reformatory Road" was renamed "Clementi Road" at that time by the Rural Board in memory of Sir Cecil Clementi, former Governor of the Straits Settlements.
• The road was originally intended to be named after Sir Hugh Clifford, who happened to be the immediate predecessor of Clementi.
• Clementi passed away earlier in 1947, the same year when the road was renamed.
• The Rural Board was chaired by Mr C. W. A. Sennett when the road was renamed. Sennett was a career colonial official who had already been in service during Clifford and Clementi's governorships.
• Sir Cecil Clementi was rendered officially as "金文泰" (pronunciation: Gum-mun-tai) in Chinese. A search in NewspaperSG suggests that the name "金文泰" first appeared in 1925, the year when Clementi came into prominence as Governor of Hong Kong. It is highly unlikely that people back then would use "金文泰" to refer Sir Cecil Clementi Smith.
• Sir Cecil Clementi Smith was known by his surname "Smith", not his middle name "Clementi", which was named after his mother's maiden name. He did not have a double-barrelled surname like "Clementi-Smith" (or without the hyphen). Before he was knighted in 1886, he was known simply as "C. C. Smith", without showing "Clementi" in full. Seriously, had the Rural Board wanted to honour Smith, the road would have been renamed "Smith Road". As a general naming convention, it was unlikely for the Rural Board to name the road after Smith's middle name of which he was not commonly known by. In fact, roads are normally named after someone's surname. First name or middle name is used to name a road only if that person is commonly known by that first or middle name.
• Although many contemporary secondary sources try to suggest that "Clementi Road" is named after Smith, they are unable to provide historical evidence to substantiate their claim. It is possible that the contemporary sources are citing each other or are poorly researched. The following are some examples:-
  • Entry in Singapore Infopedia: the entry relies on a book entitled Street names of Singapore, which was published in 2000. As I have no access to the book, I am unable to comment on its reliability.
  • Straits Times: most of the newspaper articles concerned are after 1990s. It seems that none of them is supported by a citation (see example one and example two). One of the newspaper articles written by a T. F. Hwang, dated 3 June 1989, even concludes "Clementi Road" was named after Smith because "[it] was already there years before the other man, Sir Cecil Clementi, assumed duties here as the SS Governor in 1930, or almost 60 years ago". Hwang's statement is obviously incorrect as the road, as already mentioned, was renamed to its present name in 1947.
  • Home, Work, Play (1999) and Singapore Street Names: A Study of Toponymics (2013): Both of them, as I've found them in Google Books, suggest that the road was named after Smith. However, no citation is provided by the former. As regards the latter, the source is quoted as "Ramachandran, 1969:39; Lee Kip Lee's notes". As I have no access to the source, I am unable to comment on its reliability.

To conclude, it is time to have a rethink and to resolve the dispute. The relevant entries in Wikipedia should also stop maintaining the factually flawed conclusion that the road and the area were named after Smith. --Clithering (talk) 16:45, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Clithering I get your point. I have seen a similar problem before where most sources have reprinted something wrong. But unfortunately, since we rely on secondary sources and with the policy of WP:NOR, it would be hard to conclusively state that the road was named after Sir Cecil Clementi. Even if we state that the etymology is disputed, at least one secondary source needs to be found which says that the naming is disputed. I can try looking for such a source though. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 11:26, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Some more stuff I managed to look up

• Straits Times, 8 May 2001 - ".... Information on new town names inspired by public figures isrelatively easy to find. For instance, grassroots records say the Clementi area took its namefrom Clementi Road, which was named after Sir Cecil Clementi Smith, Governorof the Straits Settlements and High Commissioner from 1887 to 1893." (Unearthing the origins of town names By Josephine James.)
• Straits Times, 16 December 2000 "For Dunlop, part of the thrill of producing this book came from the research and the subsequent ability to refute earlier claims. For instance, he says that it is generally accepted that Clementi Road was named after Sir Cecil Clementi Smith, Governor of the Straits Settlements and High Commissioner between 1887 and 1893. Gleaning information from old maps however, he discovered that the road we know today as Clementi Road was called Reformatory Road until as late as the 1920s. Though it is a matter of conjecture, Dunlop believes there must have been another prominent Clementi who came after the 1920s and through his research, he actually finds one - also Sir Cecil Clementi, but Governor of Hongkong from 1930 to 1933 and the driving force behind Kallang Airport. Dunlop, whose father served with the British army in South-east Asia, first came here as a child though he has lived most of his life in Britain." (What's in a S'pore road name By Arthur Sim.)
• Comment on on a local blog giving an alternate reasoning

In any case, I will try to obtain Dunlop's book and see what it says. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 11:51, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Lemongirl942 Thank you for your reply. I remember when Sir David Clementi, Sir Cecil Clementi's grandson, visited Singapore late last year, I read a commentary which shared my views in a Singapore's Chinese newspaper website. However, I can no longer find that commentary now and I do not remember the name of the newspaper. Perhaps you could conduct a search. Besides, we may be able to set the record straight if we have access to some sort of primary source, such as the Annual Report of the Rural Board for 1947 or the notes of that particular meeting of the Rural Board. I am looking forward to your reply on your search for Dunlop's book too. --Clithering (talk) 13:53, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

(outdenting, sorry) Hey Clithering. I managed to ask a friend to look up Dunlop's book. Here's an extract: It has been suggested that this road, like Smith and Cecil streets, was named after Governor Sir Cecil Clementi Smith. Maps show however that what is now Clementi road was named Reformatory road as late as 1920s. It is therefore probable that Clementi Road was actually named after Sir Cecil Clementi, who was the governor of Straits Settlements from 1930-33. Sir Cecil Clementi has previously served as Governor of Hong Kong and instigated the construction of Kallang Airport. I changed the text in the article to say what is "generally accepted" and what is "possible", rather than mention that it was named after Cecil Clementi Smith. I will try to look up the source for Brenda Yeoh's book next. Thank you for your suggestion about the Rural Board records. That can help to set the record straight. Let me see if I can find a way to access them. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 08:15, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your untiring efforts in obtaining Dunlop's book and I entirely agree with your edits (with a minor exception that I replace "generally accepted" with "generally suggested"). Feel free to let me know if I can offer any assistance. --Clithering (talk) 15:51, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

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Updating of West Coast Recreation Centre

Hi all. I have updated the 'Recreation' section to mention the closure and demolition of West Coast Recreation Centre. I have also added details about the West Coast Recreation Centre when it was operating, such as mentioning iconic attractions that it used to house.

I think that these details are important, as the West Coast Recreation Centre, and the attractions it housed, were very popular during its time. Many people do reminisce the time spent there, and some people may not even be aware that it has ceased operations, so cataloguing the history of the building and its attractions can be informative to those who were unaware, and serve as valuable information to those who had frequented it in the past.

Please do take a look at what I have added, and feel free to add in any information or even photos you might have, and/or clean up any phrasing. Thank you. -- Sentimex (talk) 05:56, 28 May 2021 (UTC)