Talk:Clan MacBean

Copying from Wikipedia

I have added a Tag above to show that a private website is copying its history page directly from this Wikipedia article.QuintusPetillius (talk) 16:09, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Rename to MacBean

Shouldn't this article be renamed? Certainly a Google books search for this century seems to support a rename to MacBean. Dougweller (talk) 10:15, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree. The Clan Association itself refers to 'Clan MacBean' - see: www.clanmacbean.net, and also on this Clan Chattan page, of which the MacBeans are a sept: http://www.clanchattan.org.uk/. (talk) 14:06 BST, 27 June 2012

Interesting but doesn't the chief of the clan spell his name as "MacBain" ? mjgm84 (talk) 14:44, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Chief's name notwithstanding, the consensus in the article and references for the name of the clan itself appears to be "MacBean". The article title should be the same. – Wdchk (talk) 01:42, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I have nominated the existing redirect "Clan MacBean" for speedy deletion as blocking this consensual page move. The existing redirect has a history, but it is trivial and not worth preserving. – Wdchk (talk) 02:19, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Major re-write of article needed

This article contains absolutely masses of unsourced information. Not only that the information is far to long winded and over bloated. It is also not encyclopedic. Therefore I intend to re-write the article and it will be completely referenced.QuintusPetillius (talk) 19:37, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Further, the article is full of massive quotations that are un-encyclopedic. The article is not written in the form of a proper Wikipedia article. Also the source I shall be using which is the Collins Scottish Clan & Family Encyclopedia, and which is approved by the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs, gives the spelling of the clan name as "MacBain" not "MacBean". I will not change the spelling for now but will only be concentrating on the article content. Also the article has been tagged as having a lack of sources/inline citations since 2008.QuintusPetillius (talk) 19:30, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

As per note below within this Talk, Fferllys has understood there was too much - explanation provided below. --Fferllys (talk) 17:44, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Neutrality

The lines "Some have taken a leap of imagination to propose that the etymologically connected name of McBheatha" and "Lastly, and more probable is the derivation given by Alexander MacBain in his respected An Etymological Dictionary of the Gaelic Language" are clearly not written from a neutral point of view. I have therefore added the Tag.QuintusPetillius (talk) 19:48, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Lack of sources

Furthermore prior to edits by User:Fferllys today this article was perfectly sourced. The user in question does not seem to understand what Wikipedia is about and has taken to adding vasts amount of unsourced information. I must point out that any of this unsourced information can be removed from Wikipedia without warning, something I expect the said user will not understand either. The user has also taken to changing the spelling of the surname MacBain to MacBean, even though the source quoted, which is a reliable source states "MacBain". And on that point I will be investigating what the official clan name is. If it turns out to be MacBain - which is how the Clan Chief spells it, then the article will be changed as such. You cannot rely on unofficial clan web sites to oppose this.QuintusPetillius (talk) 19:48, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

All points noted by Fferllys, who now understands why the majority of the previous entry's data was removed by QuintusPetillius and the need to have done a better job of adding more citations (although many had been given). The intention was to edit what has existed before, which had inaccuracies to it and missed material that would have been of interest and value to people seeking historical references to Clan MacBean. The key sources used were intended to provide a more accurate historical record from material that has provided the best historical record of Clan MacBean, mostly gained from original sources such as Lachlan Mackintosh of Kinrara's record (c.1680), which is well known to historians of the clans of Clan Chattan (of which MacBean was one) as one of the most authoritative original sources. It is appreciated that QuintusPetillius will not have read the work of Lachlan Mackintosh of Kinrara, nor AM Mackintosh or Charles Fraser Mackintosh - they are rare texts, so these references and sources may not have seemed as useful as others more commonly available. Fferllys is now striving to edit what was added, remove bits that QuintusPetillius would advise and add citations to verify and cross-reference where Quintus advises, and apologises for having added far too much before, even if it was of interest to those interested in Clan MacBean. Fferllys hopes Quintus won't mind us putting back the picture of Gillies MacBean, which he removed - but if not, we'll entirely understand and accept his wish not to have it there. Lastly, Fferllys appreciates that QuintusPetillius is a true professional and is streets ahead when it comes to editing Wikipedia - just requests that Quintus is patient with younger, less experienced people trying to edit with the very best of intentions. --Fferllys (talk) 17:43, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

The Clan Chief spells his name McBain, due to a change in surname by the family of today's chief. The Clan is known as MacBean, and as Dougweller correctly referenced above - see Rename to MacBean' - Clan Chattan uses this spelling, although McBain is also used. It is a bit confusing but that's where it is. The Clan MacBean's official website also uses the spelling MacBean. This is why Fferllys corrected spellings in the text - the Forbes Macbeans kept their version all lower case. Records from the past may have been found with all manner of spellings, and the chiefs in the past when signing documents also used M'Bean (i.e. McBean with the 'c' at the top of the 'M'). --Fferllys (talk) 17:43, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Under Scottish law, a man named MacBain cannot be chief of a clan named MacBean. His surname has to be the clan name. But don't get me wrong, I know that people who have the different spelling variations can still be part of the clan.

Yes, I think the then Lord Lyon tried to persuade the previous chief to change his surname to the clan's name, rather than get the clan to change to his, but there were very good reasons why he didn't wish to do that. Hence today's use of MacBean often for the clan, despite the chief's own surname being McBain...mostly its written 'McBain (or MacBean)' or MacBean (or McBain)' or something like that! One of life's peculiarities :)--Fferllys (talk) 17:53, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

We should be clear that the website clanmacbean.net is actually that of "Clan MacBean, Inc." [1]. Clan societies and associations aren't clans themselves. One of Thomas Innes of Learney's books goes on about how armigerous societies/associations are actually 'indeterminate cadets' according to the Law of Arms, just like armigerous members of any given clan. So in effect, armigerous societies/associations can be regarded as 'corporate clansmen'. I wonder if mcbainofmcbain.com could be regarded as the 'official' website of clan/chief? It's hard to tell, since there's no 'about' section, but some posts are attributed to "McBain of McBain" and a certain "Lady Peggy of McBain of McBain". Anyway, its blurb on the chief is states that he "Matriculated arms 15th February 1979 by Lord Lyon King of Arms as the 22nd Hereditary Chief of the Ancient Celtic Clan McBain (MacBean)" [2].--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 11:33, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Article content

Lets just get a few things straight about the Clan MacBean article. Wikipedia is not about quoting large exact excerpts from the given sources. In this case: "An Etymological Dictionary of the Gaelic Language". By all means quote this book as a source but put it into your own words - this is what Wikipedia is all about - reflecting what the sources say in your own words. Another thing I would like to mention is that the source I have used (Collins Scottish Clan Encyclopedia) uses both the spelling MacBean and MacBain depending on which individual it is referring to and it is important to use the same spelling of someone's name that is used in the source. For example the book I have used, uses the spelling MacBean for the 6 foot 4 inch hero at the Battle of Culloden and then uses the spelling MacBain for the man who helped Cameron of Lochiel off the field at the same battle. This brings me to another problem. As I have already mentioned the chief spells his name as MacBain and under Scottish law a man named MacBain cannot be chief of a clan named MacBean - the chief's surname has to be that of the clan name. But don't get me wrong, I know that people who have the different spelling variations can still be part of the clan. I am not in a great rush to change the article name but thought I should mention this. I am more concerned about the article content. Another thing, regarding the historical accuracy of the information Wikipedia is about reflecting what the sources say - even if it is not necessarily accurate. If there is a piece of sourced information that you don't agree with then you must quote a source that says otherwise in order to remove what you think is incorrect information. And lastly may I remind everyone that any unsourced information can be removed from Wikipedia without warning. Thanks. QuintusPetillius (talk) 17:45, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Inconsistent Spelling in Ages Past

Perhaps the MacBean/MacBain controversy could be better dealt with by recognizing that back before 1500, most documents were written by hand, and even so, most histories were oral, at least in this part of the world. Differing accents might give rise to different spellings, and individual idiosyncrasies in pronouncing words might fool even the most accomplished and practiced scribe. The British word "clerk" sounds like the American name "Clark". And there are other kinds of pronunciations which could lead to spelling errors: "Magdalene" sounds remarkably like "Maudlin", "Leicestershire" sounds like "Lestershire", and so on. It might be best to trace people back to ancestral lands to determine chances of consanguinity rather than rely on the spelling of a name alone; people back then did not in general enjoy the same degree of mobility as we have now, either due to lack of means or due to legal restriction. Streamfortyseven (talk) 21:36, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

The spelling of the name whether MacBain or MacBean should be whatever spelling variation is used in the source that is being quoted. That is what Wikipedia is about.QuintusPetillius (talk) 12:17, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

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Spelling: MacBean and Macbean

Charles Fraser-Mackintosh in 1898 spells the clan as Macbean instead of MacBean. This article uses MacBean just about everywhere. What is the proper spelling for the name of the clan?

ICE77 (talk) 01:58, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

The clan is 'MacBean'. Members of the clan have had their name recorded (including the chiefly line) as: 'MacBean', 'Macbean', 'McBean', 'Mack Bean', 'McBain', 'McBayne', 'McBane' .....and it goes on. Charles Fraser-Mackintosh therefore simply used one form of the name ('Macbean'), and this was also applied to the MacBean subscribers of his book 'Minor Septs of Clan Chattan', whatever form of spelling each used. The Clan organisation called it 'Clan MacBean' - see: https://clanmacbean.org/. The Chief is 'McBain of McBain'. The Clan historically has been Clan MacBean, so despite the spelling of the Chief's name, this form (MacBean) has continued. The reason is that when the chiefship was re-established by Hughston McBain, his line had changed the spelling of their name after emigration to Canada from Scotland.

However, it does appear that if one takes the wording of the actual matriculation (8th March 1960), Hughston McBain became Chief of the Clan McBain, not the Clan 'MacBean'. Whether this is simply a matter of semantics, or whether the clan's official name is therefore 'Clan McBain' is probably only a question The Lord Lyon could answer. It is possible that since 1960 there has been confirmation that the official name of the Clan is the older form of 'Clan MacBean', as used by the Clan's association, the Clan Chattan Association, and others. Or The Lord Lyon may say that the spelling is a flexible feast, as the surname appears to have been over the centuries.

Hope that helps. --Chattan1 (talk) 21:37, 19 May 2019 (UTC)