Talk:Cinnabar

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'what value does cinnabar have?' Is Cinnabar the same as Vermilion? If no, what's the difference? My dictionary lists both as translations of the German de:Zinnober. --212.144.165.5 10:13, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

Vermilion is the standard name in English given to the red artists' pigment based on artificially made mercuric sulfide, while cinnabar is the name given to the natural mineral. See:http://www.naturalpigments.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=450-10S

81.84.78.118 18:31, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey this is some pretty heavy academic shit to be dropping on the laypeople out here. Can anyone work around the geology-ese? Twinning? What the hell is that in plain english?

Twinning doesn't exist in plain English. Crystal twinning occurs when two (or more) crystals grow from the same lattice separately but maintaining a fixed structural relationship. --Bejnar (talk) 09:14, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

The following sentence in about the 5th paragraph seems to be wrong: "It has the highest refractive power of any mineral. Its mean index for sodium light is 3.08,[8] whereas the index for diamond is 2.42 and that for gallium(III) arsenide (GaAs) is 3.93." How can it be the highest when its refractive index lies between that of diamonds and GaAs? I did not change anything because I am not familiar with the subject. Jimknock (talk) 03:44, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

reference for the toxicology

• P. Jitaru and F. Adams (2004). "Toxicity, sources and biogeochemical cycle of mercury". Journal de Physique IV France. 121: 185–193. doi:10.1051/jp4:2004121012.</ref>
• Z.-Y. Huang; J.-C. Shen; Z.-X. Zhuang; X.-R. Wang; F. S. C. Lee (2004). "Metallothionein as a biomarker for mercury in tissues of rat fed orally with cinnabar". Applied Organometallic Chemistry. 18 (6): 255–261. doi:10.1002/aoc.627.</ref>
• T. S. Yeoh; A. S. Lee; H. S. Lee (1986). "Absorption of mercuric sulphide following oral administration in mice". Toxicology. 41 (1): 107–111. doi:10.1016/0300-483X(86)90108-3.</ref>
• Kangyum E., Oransky S. H. (1992). "Chinese Patent Medicine As A Potential Source of Mercury-Poisoning". VETERINARY AND HUMAN TOXICOLOGY. 34 (3): 235–238.</ref>

Lewis, Richard J., Sr, (2003). Sax's Dangerous Properties of Industrial Materials (10th Edition) Volumes 1-3. John Wiley & Sons. Online version available at: http://www.knovel.com/knovel2/Toc.jsp?BookID=707&VerticalID=0 Mercury Sulfide is given the highest Hazard Rating (3 on a scale of 1-3) --Atcack 04:01, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Merger

It seems to me that the Mercury sulfide page is frankly rather pointless. It contains very little information. I just thought it would be more productive to have them on the same page (especially since each page says its the same as the other...). I would also accept leaving Mercury sulfide as the parent page if that was thought to be more appropriate and beneficial. Slithytove2 10:23, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I also considered adding Vermilion to the list to be merged also, but it seemed that it was more... or maybe not? any suggestions? (note the question at the very top of this page.) Slithytove2 10:26, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

No, the cinnabar article should focus on the mineralogy aspects, whereas purely chemical data and uses should be in a separate article on the chemical compound. Perhaps we need to shift some content - some duplication will remain, but the two should remain separate as should vermillion. Vsmith 12:10, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Oppose Merge It is tha same like edible salt and sodium chloride have to merge. There is a difference between the mineral or ore and the chemical substance!--Stone 12:55, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the merge tags. --Ligulem 16:52, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Medicinal Use

IMO reference to arsenic is superfluous and should be removed 195.38.93.206 13:37, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

IMO, the medicinal section should be expanded to include historical usage in alchemy. I'm not as familiar with its usage in Western alchemy, but in Taoist Chinese alchemy, cinnabar and gold were the two prime ingredients in most "immortality elixirs" and such. I can provide more detailed (and sourced) information, if consensus is in favor of expanding this section. Rpine75 (talk) 02:14, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

It should probably be mentioned that these elixers killed almost everyone who took them. Omicron91 22:22, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Seriously? This section of the article is not only unsourced and ridiculous, but also incredibly dangerous should someone actually, in any way, take it lightly how extremely poisonous Mercury is. It may be alternative "medicine" to some people, but I think the only real thing it could replace would be the drugs they use for lethal injection. I'm going to tag this section is dubious and unsourced and as needing an expert. Noformation (talk) 08:30, 5 August 2008 (UTC)Noformation

Removed. Vsmith (talk) 12:20, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I have to disagree with outright removal. I'm not disputing the toxicity of mercury/cinnabar, but removing all mention of medicinal use doesn't change the fact that it has been used for medicinal purposes in the past, and continues to be used so under certain non-Western medicinal regimens. Trepanning is mostly discredited now too, but that doesn't change the fact that it was used for milennia for medicinal purposes. Rpine75 (talk) 14:45, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Mention why this article is rightly in Category:Traditional Chinese medicine, and the numerous poisonings, to this very day. Jidanni (talk) 00:40, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Cinnabon

Any relation to Cinnabon? The first five six lettars are the same. D-Fluff has had E-Nuff 00:47, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think Cinnabon has anything to do with cinnabar. Instead, i think Cinnabon has many things to do with Cinnamon :). 119.40.118.201 (talk) 06:23, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

both are related to cinnamon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.17.136.33 (talk) 08:21, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 07:52, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Cinnabar in the Netherlands?

I have flagged with "citation needed" the mention of Laaren, Netherlands as a locality where cinnabar is found. The modern spelling of Laaren is Laren, and there are two communities in the Netherlands with this name, one in North Holland and another in Gelderland. In the Dutch Wikipedia, the article about cinnabar (cinnaber in Dutch) makes no mention of any occurrence in the Netherlands, nor does either of the articles about the two communities named Laren mention cinnabar or exploitation of any other mineral resource. Hydrothermal mineral deposits of any kind are not common in the Netherlands. A search of other lists of places where cinnabar is or has been exploited finds mention of Laaren or Laren only in texts which appear to have been cloned word-for-word from this Wikipedia article.--Piperh (talk) 12:34, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Removed. Vsmith (talk) 01:15, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

File:Cinnabar on Dolomite.jpg to appear as POTD soon

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Cinnabar on Dolomite.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on August 28, 2010. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2010-08-28. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks! howcheng {chat} 16:30, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Picture of the day

A specimen of cinnabar, the common ore of mercury, atop a larger sample of dolomite. Cinnabar is generally found in a massive, granular or earthy form and is bright scarlet to brick-red in color. It generally occurs as a vein-filling mineral associated with recent volcanic activity and alkaline hot springs.Photo: Noodle snacks

Modern Use of Cinnabar

As a hobby and professional jewelry maker I was stunned to discover the toxicity of Cinnabar. Many people are using Cinnabar beads which generally come from China and are often sold at popular USA arts and craft department stores. While the article sites that the toxic material is replaced by a resin pigment, I can't help but wonder if there is still a toxicity level when handling cinnabar beads, or if it is considered completely safe, safe enough to put in one's mouth? I mean babies are always grabbing onto necklaces and could try and taste it! Personally I am wondering if I should forgo ever using cinnabar again. Expert insight on this matter would be an appreciated addition to the article. Thanks, Bmah318 (talk) 12:35, 10 January 2012 (UTC)Melanie

Check out Wikipedia:Medical disclaimer. --Bejnar (talk) 09:14, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Cinnabar is quite stable, and has extremely low solubility. It can be contaminated with elemental mercury, which is toxic. On its own though, it's typically fairly stable and non-toxic (obviously, you don't want to react it with things like acids, or put it in fire). See the MSDS [1]. No medical advice, though. Buddy431 (talk) 15:36, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Assessment comment

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The first known use of cinnabar is referred in the dolmenic burial "La Velilla", in Osorno (Palencia, Spain), where well-preserved human bones were carefully covered by large amount of pulverized cinnabar (5000 B.C.). The mercury-based composition of the cinnabar makes the preservation of the osseous remains possible by preventing the activity of destructive microorganisms (The Lancet, 1994 Dec 24-31;344(8939-8940):1776-7). Vermilion proved to be useful in the preservation of human bones 5000 years ago. In the dolmenic burial at La Velilla’ in Osorno (Palencia, Spain) human bones have been found remarkably well preserved coated in powdered cinnabar (vermilion), surviving in unfavourable climate conditions. The powder was deliberately added as a preservative since there was no cinnabar mine within a radius of 160 km, because of the large amount present (hundreds of kilograms), and because its composition (mercuric sulphide red) is similar to that of preparations used in embalming. This discovery alters the date of the use of mercury ore as a preservative for human remains by at least 1000 years in Europe. Human bones coated in cinnabar-containing paint were recently discovered in a 900-1000 BC tomb in a Middle Sican burial in Peru. This type of preservation has not been previously reported in Europe or the Middle East;however, cinnabar was found in so-called Algar Culture tombs, in south-east Spain, and mercury was found in an amulet in an Egyptian tomb dated around the 16th century BC. Before the discovery at La Velilla, it was believed that European races did not make use of the bacteriostatic properties of mercury-based antiseptics, until the time of Paracelsus, when it was applied in epidemic new diseases such as syphilis or morbus gallicus, exanthematic typhus, and the anglian exudation. The good state of the bones at La Velilla was attributable to mercuric sulphide, which makes possible the preservation of bone by preventing the activity of destructive microorganisms. Cinnabar was used in embalming as late as the 19th century. William Hunter was the first to inject vermilion (dispersed in a mixture of turpentine essences, lavender oil,and camomile oil) in the femoral arteries of corpses, which was hailed as a revolution in the art of embalming. The relatives of individuals buried in La Velilla probably paid a high price in terms of their health. We now know that the mercurial vapours that arise during vermilion preparation in cinnabar grinding cause serious irritation of the lungs (chemical pneumonia), kidney disease,and moderate disturbance of the digestive system, accompanied by a metallic taste. Finally, the cinnabar used at La Velilla seemed part of a unique ritual. The evidence leads us to think that 100 or so people were buried once the soft tissue had decomposed and only their bones remained. The bones were then dipped in vermilion and placed in the dolmen. There is some evidence, however, indicating that some tissue adhered to the bones. Other features that reinforce the hypothesis of a unique ritual are: the ten great stone blocks that were the dolmen foundations lay horizontally (instead of vertically, as is usual), fireplaces were made before laying of the dolmen floor, and special spatula-like shaped bone idols (worked onovicaprid tibiae and carved with geometric themes or with female forms and also stained in vermilion) were placed alongside the dead. J Martín-Gil, F J Martín-Gil, G Delibes de Castro,P Zapatero-Magdaleno, F J Sarabia-Herrero

Last edited at 17:32, 22 October 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 19:52, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Dupe

Should the duplicate article Cinnebar be merged or redirected? Keahapana (talk) 00:14, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Made it a redirect here, see talk:Cinnebar. Vsmith (talk) 03:01, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

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Etymology

I don’t know the answer to this question, but my recollection is that there are only 9 words in Ancient Greek that contain a doubled nu, and all of them are foreign words borrowed from other languages. (I remember this fact from reading about the name of the Sea of Gallilee, lake gennesaret, in the New Testament.) If this is true, kinnebari deserves to show derivation from something further behind the Greek, since it is not a natural Greek word.

Merriam-Webster.com says “... from Greek kinnabari, of non-Indo-European origin; akin to Arabic zinjafr cinnabar” (not much help. What was the immediate non-Indo-European predecessor?)

The Wikipedia article on the spice cinnamon says it’s name was borrowed into Greek from a Phoenician word. “Ancient Greek: κιννάμωμον kinnámōmon (later kínnamon), via Latin and medieval French intermediate forms. The Greek was borrowed from a Phoenician word, which was similar to the related Hebrew: קינמון‎ (qinnāmōn).” Aragorn 21:49, 21 December 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jkshrews (talk • contribs)

Synthesis of cinnabar

@Hu741f4, regarding why was it removed? As the edit summary here indicates, it was removed because the fact that combining mercury and sulphur results in the synthesis of cinnabar has probably been known since the very first experiments with mercury, which likely predate even the advent of alchemy in the first century CE, and is of no historical importance whatsoever. In any case, it was known by all Arabic alchemists, including the earliest of them, writing under the name of Jabir ibn Hayyan. See, for example, Principe, Lawrence M. (2013). The Secrets of Alchemy. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press. p. 36.:

Two points need to be stressed about the Mercury-Sulfur theory of the metals. First, [...] Second, the metallic principles Mercury and Sulfur were not necessarily identical with the common substances called by those names. These names were attached to the condensed exhalations by analogy with the properties of the common substances. Arabic alchemists knew very well that when they combined common mercury and sulfur in their workshops, they obtained cinnabar (mercuric sulfide), not a metal. The Jabirian corpus even gives a clear recipe for making cinnabar by dripping mercury into molten sulfur.

So it's nonsense to claim that The earliest known method for the synthesis of Cinnabar first appeared in De aluminibus et salibus of al-Razi, nor does the source used actually claim that. What the source does –correctly– say is that the De aluminibus et salibus contains the earliest description of a way to prepare corrosive sublimate or Mercury(II) chloride, which in contrast to the production of cinnabar was of great historical importance.

Apart from that, the attribution of the De aluminibus et salibus is generally considered false by scholars; see Moureau, Sébastien (2020). "Min al-kīmiyāʾ ad alchimiam. The Transmission of Alchemy from the Arab-Muslim World to the Latin West in the Middle Ages". Micrologus. 28: 117, 106. hdl:2078.1/211340.:

p. 117: Although many alchemical Latin texts are attributed to Rāzı̄, only one is, in the current state of research, known to be a translation of the famous physician and alchemist. The Liber secretorum Bubacaris is the partial Latin translation (inc.: liber iste dividitur in duas partes scilicet [...] THK 820), or more precisely a paraphrase, of the Kitāb al-asrār (Book of Secrets) of Rāzı̄ (Abū Bakr Muhammad b. Zakariyā’ al-Rāzı̄), a very influential Arabic text which is still extant.

p. 106: The De aluminibus et salibus, also called De spiritibus et corporibus (inc.: scias quod atramenti genera sunt multa [...] ITHK 1388), is one of the three translations of alchemical treatises that are attributed to Gerard of Cremona (1114 -1187) in the list of his socii; the text is most often anonymous, but is sometimes attributed to Hermes, or more rarely to Rāzı̄. These titles refer actually to two different translations of one anonymous Arabic treatise probably written in the eleventh or the twelfth century in al-Andalus.

It's only sometimes attributed to al-Razi, but this is not considered correct. The anonymous 11th/12th-century Andalusian Arabic treatise is considered to be strongly influenced by al-Razi's authentic works though, but that is neither here or there. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 14:40, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Ok thanks! I learned a new stuff today Hu741f4 (talk) 01:45, 4 September 2022 (UTC)