Talk:Church of the East (disambiguation)

Regarding recent changes

The recent edit I made was by no means "To give preminence to ACOF over the others two bodies as true heir of the ancient Church of East." This is simply factual as the Chaldean Catholic Church split from the Assyrian Church of the East in 1553. The Ancient Church of the East split from the ACOE in 1968 over reformations made in regard to changing the calendar to Roman from Gregorian. Secondly the Chaldean Catholic Church is not known as the Chaldean Catholic Church of the East as you put it in the Disamb page page but the former. The main article is known as Chaldean Catholic Church. The name you put does not match up with the main article page. Thirdly Wikipedia has rules Wikipedia:Naming conventions on using the most commonly used title in the English language.

Here are the searches I did in regards to the dominant name for the religious body. Google Engine

• CCC got 45,600 hits [1]
• Whereas CCCOTE got 22,900 hits [2]

Google Scholar

• CCC got 4460 hits [3]
• Whereas CCCOTE got 3660 hits [4]

Google Book

• CCC got 1326 hits[5]
• Whereas CCCOTE got under 900 hits [6]

Note: A good portion of the hits that came under CCCOTE made reference entirely to ACOE rather then the former

As the Roman Church is the mother church of the Western Christianity, the Assyrian Church along with Syriac Orthodox churchs are the mother of Eastern Christianity. This remark may sound POV to a certain extent but it is simply a fact my friend, some maybe unhappy with it but we cannot argue with the truth of the matter. CCC is predomiantly known as such and not CCCOTE as you have put it. It is improper to place CCC in this disambig page as it is not officially known as the Chaldean Catholic Church of the East but more simply as CCC. My results above prove my claim. The church does not refer to itself as such so I am not sure why you labeled it as Church of the East in the disambig page. Your input on this is appreciated. Ninevite (talk) 03:50, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, of course also the Chaldean Church thinks to be the true heir of the ancient Church of East. Wiki shall give account of all POVs, even if perhaps historically unsupported but supported by a significant number of people. In a dis page it is better not to take position on POV: in the related Articles there are all the necessary explanations

On a historical point of view, the 1553 group ordained in Rome has nothing to do with the present Chaldean Catholic Church, but it developed in the present ACEO (Mar Dinkha IV). Before the 1553 there was only one patriarchate in Church of East with see in Alqosh (monastery of Rabban Hormizd). This patriarchate had two splits: in 1553 and in 1681 (both of them quite limited in number of faithfuls). The last patriarch of the Alqosh patriarchate Yohannan Hormizd in 1778 became catholic and in 1830 was recognized by Rome: so the ancient Alqosh patriarchate of the CoE became the Chaldean Church: also the apostolic succession of the Chaldean Church (one bishop that consecrate other bishop) came directly patriarch by patriarch from the undivided CoE, not from Rome.

On the contrary the present ACoE (Mar Dinkha IV) is a patriarchal line that cames from Yohanan Shimun VIII Sulaqa who was consecrated in 1553 by the pope: this minority group lost its connections with Rome in the 17th century and moved far into the North mountain in the see of Qochanis where in the 19th century was subject to the deep influence of the Anglican missions, and later of the Russian Orthodox missions (being so involved in the WWI and woefully massacred by the Turks).

It is not so simply to say which is the true heir of the ancient CoE: if we look at the ecclesiastical hierarchy, the apostolic succession, the continuity and the numbers of faithfuls, the heir is the CCC, if we look at the doctrine the heir is perhaps the ACOE (even if its doctrine was influenced by the Anglican missions) as well as the Malabar Church in India. I dont want to take any position, but simply not to have a POV to prevail over an other.

You can check online in [7] and offline in whichever text, as David Wilmshurst, The Ecclesiastical Organisation of the Church of the East, 1318-1913, Peeters Publishers, 2000 ISBN 9042908769, or Charles A. Frazee, Catholics and Sultans: The Church and the Ottoman Empire 1453-1923, Cambridge University Press, 2006 ISBN 052102700

For your second point, a dis page is made to list all the uses, not to find the correct name of a body, and shall be NPOV. Moreover the issue is NOT which is the name of the Chaldean Church (of the East), but it is to indicate the relevant Articles to a user who looks for Church of the East. Please see that for example the D. Wilmshurst, probably the more detailed study on the history of the CoE of more than 800 pages, uses CoE and includes in it also the Chaldean Church. Also [8] uses the term "CoE" to indicate also the CCC(OTE). The references in google, that by the way are only indicative and cannot prevail over scholar references, confirm that the generic term "CoE" may refers sometime also to the CCC(OTE). I listed it in the third place because the less used, you moved on the second place.

Of course we can modify: Chaldean Catholic Church (or sometimes Chaldean Catholic Church of the East): the part the Church of the East in full communion with the pope of Rome. (to indicate one single date would need too much explanation: it is impossible to choose among 1553, 1681 or 1830)

note: I'm nor CCC(OTE) nor ACoE, I'm out from any of these POVs, but I simply like history A ntv (talk) 09:05, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

I am neither ACOE or CCC, I belong to different branch altogether. I agree with the majority of what you have said above, I do not doubt that for any reason as you provided a historical input for it, the only issue that raises my attention is that you have labeled CCC as the CCCOTE. As I have shown above with my searches this churchs proper title is predominantly known as CCC respectively and not the latter. Yes there is no doubt in what you claim but we need to simply look at the facts. I have these questions to ask you what is the offical title of the church? I have no problem with having it in the disambig page but to refer to it as COE as its proper title is somewhat misleading. Perhaps I have misunderstood something, and you can clarify what your stance is on it. Ninevite (talk) 21:31, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

I've modified the name from CCCOE to CCC. Anyway the issue here is not to find the correct name of the CCC, but to answer the question: "the Church of the East may refer to...". There is no doubt that a reader that (for example) buy the text of David Wilmshurst, The Ecclesiastical Organisation of the Church of the East, 1318-1913 finds that the text speaks also of the CCC. So we can also say the Church of the East may refer to...the CCC. Note that the dis page does not say that the proper title of the CCC is COE, but simply that the term COE may be used to refer to the CCC, as well as to the ACOE and so on A ntv (talk) 03:00, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Nestorianism

FYI, the Nestorianism article has been substantially rewritten, and multiple editors are now working on straightening out just what the term means. There are many historians which are moving away from the term "Nestorian" and starting to use "Church of the East", which is why it is considered appropriate to include the term on this disambiguation page. If anyone would like specific sources, just ask, or check the work that is being done on the Nestorianism article. --Elonka 01:25, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, quite so. For the interested, this came up due to concerns about the terminology we were using in articles. For years we had our article on the Christian sect variously known as "Church of the East", "Nestorianism", "Persian Church", etc, at "Assyrian Church of the East". However, it was pointed out that this does not follow usage in reliable sources. The most common name for this church seems to be "Nestorianism" (or Nestorian Church, Nestorian Christianty, whatever), so we've been rewriting "Nestorianism" to fit that. If in the future it is decided that that article's title needs to be changed, it can be discussed at that article.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:29, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

"(1) "Nestorianism is not a church. 2) If anything it is the system of thought of the next listing. 3) The "Persian Church" is the ACE.)" The "Nestorian Church" is simply the Assyrian Church of the East. This is the corresponding church. Thus, "Nestorianism" cannot reasonably be included as a listing in this article. Deusveritasest (talk) 01:49, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

That's incorrect. "Nestorianism" is one of the names given to the historical Christian church based in Persia and spreading throughout Asia. This church has been given a number of names in reliable sources, like "Persian Church" and "Church of the East" (which is why we're here), but after doing some reading it appears that "Nestorianism", "Nestorian Church", etc., is the most common in the sources. These sources almost never use the name "Assyrian Church of the East" for the historical church; as far as I can tell it is used only for the modern church that is the descendant of the historical Nestorian church. In accordance with this "Nestorianism" is undergoing a rewrite to become the main article on the subject, and thus it needs to be listed here so readers can locate the information.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:44, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

In agreement with Cuchullain. I've also tried providing detailed sources to Deusveritasest at his talkpage. --Elonka 18:03, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Please see the current discussion at Talk:Nestorianism#Name.--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:32, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Where have you seen "Nestorianism" used as an appelation for the church itself? I want to see where "Nestorianism" is used to refer to a church rather than a system of belief. "Nestorian church" may be syntactically correct in that respect, but "Nestorianism" is not. It would be like referring to the Anglican Communion as "Anglicanism" or the Roman Catholic Church as "Roman Catholicism". This is rarely done because it is recognized as improper grammar.

Also, where has the ACE indicated that it ever accepted that name for itself? You cannot pretend that Western polemical sources are sufficient to identify the name of a church: the principle on Wikipedia is self-identification. Deusveritasest (talk) 20:54, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the principle on Wikipedia is "the usage of reliable sources, such as those used as references for the article". If you read the Nestorianism article, you will find no "Western polemical sources", you will find all scholarly sources, many of which use the "Nestorian" label, and these always in a neutral and non-judgmental way. But you are correct about the -ism issue; please see Talk:Nestorianism#Name on that.--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:36, 9 February 2010 (UTC)