Talk:Chronic traumatic encephalopathy/Archive 1

Archive 1

Lou Gehrig picture and DYK ref.

From the referenced article:

Although the paper does not discuss Gehrig specifically, its authors in interviews acknowledged the clear implication: Lou Gehrig might not have had Lou Gehrig’s disease.

So, uh, in other words, this is a wild guess by the authors that they're not yet ready / willing to stick in a peer reviewed paper? And we're mentioning this in the lede, complete with picture of Gehrig, as if to make him the example case? There are plenty of atheletes who definitely, 100% had CTE and we aren't hypothesizing about, so I'd definitely be in favor of swapping the picture to one of them, and downplaying Gehrig in the article. SnowFire (talk) 05:30, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Personal reflections, hatted per WP:TALK
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
What is DP Repeated concussions and sub-concussions incurred during the play of football over a long period can result in CTE. The brain changes in CTE and DP are similar and are delayed sequelae of repeated concussions and sub-concussions of the brain. What is meant by DP here? The term is not referenced earlier in the article. Delmlsfan (talk) 19:24, 20 February 2011 (UTC) DP is Dementia pugilistica. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.182.92.144 (talk) 16:28, 20 March 2011 (UTC) Treatment??? This sounds awful. Is there any treatment for this????? Bigmac31 (talk) 21:24, 1 April 2011 (UTC) Prevention. LeadSongDog come howl! 03:11, 6 October 2011 (UTC) New sources Gavett BE, Stern RA, McKee AC (2011 Jan). "Chronic traumatic encephalopathy: a potential late effect of sport-related concussive and subconcussive head trauma". Clin Sports Med. 30 (1): 179–88. PMID 21074091. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) McKee AC, Gavett BE, Stern RA, Nowinski CJ, Cantu RC, Kowall NW, Perl DP, Hedley-Whyte ET, Price B, Sullivan C, Morin P, Lee HS, Kubilus CA, Daneshvar DH, Wulff M, Budson AE (2010 Sep). "TDP-43 proteinopathy and motor neuron disease in chronic traumatic encephalopathy". J Neuropathol Exp Neurol. 69 (9): 918–29. PMC 2951281. PMID 20720505. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) "Ex-NHL great Rick Martin had degenerative brain disease: Researchers concerned CTE found in non-enforcer's brain tissue". CBC News. Oct 5, 2011. James Christie (Oct 5, 2011). "Former Sabres star Rick Martin had brain disease". The Globe and Mail. Jeff Z. Klein (October 5, 2011). "Former Star Had Disease Linked to Brain Trauma". New York Times. LeadSongDog come howl! 03:09, 6 October 2011 (UTC) http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1064748112000814 new, preliminary research on live diagnosis — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.254.55.118 (talk) 07:14, 8 February 2013 (UTC) Sources needed It's super important to have references when talking about living people, and even more urgent when talking about something that might be considered sensitive such as brain damage. So I'm going to hide the names in the list without references, we can add references for them and unhide each one as it is referenced in at least one reliable source. (Some of these people may be dead, I'm not sure. But it's still not good to have info without a citation so we should leave it hidden until we can verify it with a citation). delldot ∇. 01:17, 5 December 2011 (UTC) TALK ABOUT THE EFFECTS ON SOLDIERS — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.52.201.230 (talk) 04:44, 23 February 2012 (UTC) Resource Derek Boogaard: A Brain ‘Going Bad’ by JOHN BRANCH published New York Times December 5, 2011 141.218.36.43 (talk) 21:33, 6 December 2011 (UTC) Praise and suggestions The information on the occurrences of each sport was interesting. There is a lot of interesting information on the famous athletes suffering from the disease. It is very interesting how the head trauma can lead to psychological dysfunction. Pictures should be added to make the article more appealing. There should be information on physical therapy and other treatments for the disease. Information such as epidemiology, classification and symptoms might also make the article more informative of the disease. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.71.205.201 (talk • contribs) 00:29, 18 February 2012‎ The sports information is very interesting to read about, but does not really define Chronic tramatic encephalopathy, which is basis of what this page is suppose to describe. (Sbrunner44 (talk) 00:49, 19 February 2012 (UTC)) The article is well written and informative with consistent citations. The article has a couple of external sources. A substantial amount of information on various athletes in different sports shows extensive research was conducted.Paliquito (talk) 05:03, 19 February 2012 (UTC) This Wikipedia page had great information about specific sports with the likelihood of getting a head injury. The subheadings and text is easy to read. I liked how this page listed different athletes that have Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy. It was smart to add links to specific athlete’s pages with CTE. Pictures/drawings should be included on this page, such as the protein or specific part of the brain that CTE is likely to occur. I would like to know the prevalence of athletes getting CTE, committing suicide (affecting their mentality) and the fatality rate. The emphasis on sports is interesting. Is there sufficient information on vehicle or motorcycle accidents? Flashy1110 (talk) 02:48, 21 February 2012 (UTC) Notes on CTE a. Good i. I liked how easily this whole page flowed with the information that was brought out. ii. Very easy to understand and the point was made clearly so that readers can understand the information and the topic that was covered. iii. I liked how there was a list of athletes listed at the end so that readers may see who had the disease and possibly research more about the people who had it. b. Needs Work i. The introduction could be elaborated a bit more as the research section is a bit longer than the intro portion of the topic. ii. The intro sentence to the section on the History could be elaborated a bit longer so that it describes more about what is to come in the following sections on the history involving different sports. iii. Another section can be added such as where this disease formed and if it is passed on between generations, or is individually diagnosed in individuals. Another section that can be added is if there is a treatment or possible cure for this disorder. Sscho87 (talk)sscho87 02/18/2012 WHAT ABOUT THE EFFECT ON THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF AMERICAN SOLDIERS? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.52.201.230 (talk) 04:46, 23 February 2012 (UTC) The traumatic encephalopathy of a soldier injured by an IED is an entirely different etiology than a trained athlete that takes hundreds of hits to the head in a career. They both eventually result the same way but the progression and circumstances are very different. Boxing Boxing is notable by its absence in the article. One would think that it would rank high on the list, if not at the very top, for contributing to chronic traumatic encephalopathy. — QuicksilverT @ 20:57, 4 May 2012 (UTC) Possibly they're thinking the Dementia pugilistica article deals with boxing injuries, if not CTE as such.--T. Anthony (talk) 22:01, 4 May 2012 (UTC) Military Personnel This article needs more information on the effects of CTE on Military Personnel i added a bit but it needs more. Quantanew (talk) 06:31, 22 May 2012 (UTC) School project This is a project for school. I am to post a piece of my writing somewhere that relates to the topic. C.T.E. The article I have chosen to respond to is “Offensive Play, How different are dog fighting and football?” by Malcolm Gladwell. This article was one I found skimming through so many on “The New Yorker” magazine’s website. There were so many articles that would not capture the interest of almost any reader it seemed. Finally, I came across one about football. I enjoy football and decided even if it was an article completely about statistics of the season it would at least keep me interested enough to finish it. It had statistics, but not about this years season. The article starts off with a story about a former NFL player by the name of Kyle Turley who has a really bad episode in a bar and is rushed to the hospital. It explains how he had been having these episodes frequently over that past year and how he didn’t really know why. Then he recalls all of the hard hits he had taken over the past years in the NFL. In this same section it starts to explain about many players that had died or whose lives fell apart after playing for the NFL for so long. Some had killed themselves but most of them had horrible changes in their personality, such as becoming alcoholics or being abusive. The article even states, “There were men with aching knees and backs and hands, from all those years of playing football. But their real problem was with their heads, the one part of their body that got hit over and over again.” After the article tells the reader part of his story it cuts off and begins with the infamous story of Michael Vick and how he sabotaged his animals for a little money. It explains how he was evaluated and let back into the NFL after many views from many different people. His animals were rescued and taken to a reserve for abused animals. The view that the article poses in this section is how evil letting animals hurt each other for entertainment is unacceptable in today’s society. This view leads the reader into the following sections. Ann McKee, head of the neuropathology lab at The Veterans Hospital in Bedford realizes that a former boxer believed to have Alzheimer‘s, that had recently passed away and had his brain autopsied had instead, C.T.E., a very serious but preventable case of head trauma. After discovering this she autopsied any brain of a former contact sport player she could get a hold of and all the evidence pointed in one direction. Most of the people that had been in contact sports had this disease which lead her to believe that the sports may be causing this deadly injury which is often misdiagnosed as Alzheimer’s Disease. In one of the cases an eighteen year old boy who played football had deterioration in his brain worse than any fifty year old! After reading the article the reader realizes the thesis of it is that we as a society find it so unthinkable to fight animals and see them suffer to please their masters, but are we willing to change a sport that many people love so that we are not doing the same thing to our own kind? If many people are ruining their lives later down the line because they want to play football for the audience, the couch, the team, the money, is it worth it? Is it right for us to let these people hurt and destroy themselves for our entertainment? I personally love football, I’ve been going to games almost my whole life, whether it was middle school games, high school games, or the games most of us watch every Sunday I was there. I was a manager for my middle school team and had the opportunity to sit right next to the sidelines and I was on the field while the boys were practicing. When they ran plays you could hear the pads and helmets crashing together so hard it would make you jump. I remember thinking of how loud it was for the boys only being thirteen and fourteen year olds. I never stopped to think of how much force was actually behind the blows or how much they were injuring themselves everyday. As I was reading the article I could not look away, it made me think of all my friends that have played, my boyfriend who played, and even my brother who has played. Every boy and some girls play football at one time and no one ever thinks about the long term damage that it might cause them later on. We sit on the sidelines and cheer them on not thinking that someday their speech might slur or their memory might fade all because we want to see a good show. This article really made me think. I have a son and this article has almost scared me into not letting him play any contact sport when he gets older. It is a great article to read and I would refer it to anyone. This discovery is really something everyone should take a look at and try to come up with answers to solve. Maybe someday we could have contact sports without the long term consequences. Anything is possible in the world today and this is something we should try to fix before the problem gets worse. Read more http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/10/19/091019fa_fact_gladwell#ixzz17VpDkfB4 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.176.96.95 (talk) 12:02, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

12:02, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

First paragraph mention of military needs editing

"CTE has been most commonly found in professional athletes participating in American football, ice hockey, professional wrestling and other contact sports who have experienced head trauma, and also in military service personnel exposed to a blast or a concussive injury [1]," The article does not present evidence that blast injury to military personnel is "commonly found". Quite the opposite. Despite probably thousands of soldiers exposed to blasts, we've uncovered evidence, as per the reference, of four cases. Hardly evidence to support a "common" finding. 146.23.68.40 (talk) 17:51, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Good catch, thank you for noting this. How's this? Feel free to make a change like this yourself if you want to in the future (or what you did here is fine too). delldot ∇. 00:54, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Contradiction: Was Owen Thomas (age 21) or Nathan Stiles (age 17) "the youngest reported CTE case"?

It's not clear who was diagnosed first, Owen Thomas or Nathan Stiles. But it is confusing when one paragraph (in the section "American football") states that Owen Thomas (age 21) was "the youngest person to be diagnosed with the condition" [CTE], while the very next paragraph states that Nathan Stiles (age 17) was "the youngest reported CTE case to date."

I don't know who died first, Thomas or Stiles, especially since there's no citation for the statement on Owen Thomas; both young men apparently died in 2010(?). I don't know how to edit this apparent contradiction, so I'm hoping someone will tackle (no pun intended!) the needed clarification.--Erasistratus1 (talk) 00:17, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

This has been since resolved. Thomas died in April, 2010 and Stiles in October, the same year.Dogru144 (talk) 06:12, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Sources Needed?

The 2nd paragraph of this article makes many claims without using any sources. The only sourced claim in this paragraph is the final sentence when its speaks of blast injuries. All the other claims about sub-concussion levels of injury appear unsupported. HanTran (talk) 19:10, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Timeline problem

"In 2002, Dr. Bennet Omalu, a forensic pathologist and neuropathologist in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania found CTE in the brains of Mike Webster, Terry Long, Andre Waters, Justin Strzelczyk and Tom McHale." The last four of those men all died after 2002, so it's impossible that Dr. Omalu found CTE in their brains in 2002. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.184.109.125 (talk) 08:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Removed "In 2002" the source says since. Ref archive link provided. - - MrBill3 (talk) 07:26, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Chronic traumatic brain injury in athletes has been described several times prior to the discovery in NFL players. The article on CTE should include the greater context of CTE in both sports-related injuries and non-sports related injuries. 1998 Publications on soccer palyers Matser JT, Kessels AG, Jordan BD, Lezak MD, Troost J. Chronic traumatic brain injury in professional soccer players. Neurology. 1998 Sep;51(3):791-6. PMID 9748028. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.254.70.165 (talk) 16:33, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

is "dementia pugilistica" term still used?

i have found none of the 2 names in International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems ( http://apps.who.int/classifications/icd10/browse/2010/en#/G30-G32 ) --Qdinar (talk) 16:50, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

It's in the abstract of this paper, which is cited already in the page: "Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy in Athletes: Progressive Tauopathy following Repetitive Head Injury" (link):

"Since the 1920s, it has been known that the repetitive brain trauma associated with boxing may produce a progressive neurological deterioration, originally termed “dementia pugilistica” and more recently, chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE)."

It may not be the current technical term, but it is certainly historically relevant.

Rusty Lugnuts (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:32, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

Misleading usage of phrase "estimated prevalence rate"

6.1, first sentence:

"Between 2008 and 2010, the bodies of twelve former professional American football players underwent postmortem evaluations for CTE, and all of them showed evidence of the disease, indicating a conservatively estimated prevalence rate of 3.7% among professional football players if no other players who died during this period had CTE"

CTE was observed in 100% of the bodies examined. This doesn't lead to an estimate of 3.7% among professional football players. This means that, at a minimum, 3.7% were found to have CTE postmortem, "if no other players who died during this period had CTE". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peterstanton (talk • contribs) 17:18, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

recent changes

Don't know why people are removing legitimate cases of CTE diagnosis. It only takes five minutes to find a source to back it up, rather than removing it. Its really not a difficult thing. The hockey players removed ALL had a source found in minutes. I will be putting them back in. And have already re-added the two CFL football players removed and added a source. It wasn't difficult. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.120.125.221 (talk) 04:08, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Movie Concussion

The upcoming movie is not yet mentioned in the article, though it is the movie that will make CTE a household term.Jdkag (talk) 15:50, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

When is it out? It may be best to wait for reviews and professional/medical comments about accuracy. What do you think? -- AstroU (talk) 04:52, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

It came out today, 12/25/15. I'll add an "In Popular Culture" subheading at the end of the article for it. Rusty Lugnuts (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:37, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

Possible copyvio/original research?

.. Or not in wikipedia's writing style and just overall confusing with all that wall of text. It is pain to read, but I'm afraid to try fix it. 88.114.89.144 (talk) 15:17, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

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Chronic traumatic encephalopathy and heavy war injuries

Hi everyone, It seems me that war neuropathologists and other war PTSD specialists could complete and update this article. See for example this article in NYTIMES: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/12/magazine/what-if-ptsd-is-more-physical-than-psychological.html?smprod=nytcore-iphone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share&_r=0 Best, --Schnäggli (talk) 10:00, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

I agree with you, Schnäggli. I might also suggest recent research by The Quinism Foundation [1] as it relates to traumatic encephalopathy. It appears they're making a case for Cinchonism specifically as it relates to Mefloquine. Pcvjamaica (talk) 00:41, 30 January 2018 (UTC)Pcvjamaica (talk) 00:44, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

American Fooball studies

Should it be acknowledged in the article somewhere that most of the brains used in these research articles are cherry-picked because of the belief the person had CTE before they died? The most recent JAMA article to be linked has 110 out of 111 brains affected by CTE, but there is a gigantic limitation in that these brains were chosen with a huge selection bias. Therefore, by reading the Wikipedia article it sounds as though 99% of football players get CTE, when in fact the low end is around 9% of analyzed brains in the B.U. brain program. SEMMENDINGER (talk) 23:07, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

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postmortem vs post-mortem

The article uses both spellings, should just pick one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nonnerperson (talk • contribs) 20:28, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

study published in 2013 of contact sports athletes and non-contact sports athletes at Dartmouth College

Study links nonconcussion head impacts in contact sports to brain changes and lower test scores, IUSM Newsroom, Dec. 11, 2013.

' . . . may cause changes in the brain's white matter and affect cognitive abilities even if none of the impacts resulted in a concussion, according to a study published today in the journal Neurology. . . '

' . . . "In addition, there was a group of contact sports athletes who didn't do as well as predicted on tests of learning and memory at the end of the season, and we found that the amount of change in the white matter measures was greater in this group,” Dr. McAllister said. . . '

' . . . The football and hockey players wore helmets equipped with accelerometers, . . . '

' . . . a form of MRI test known as diffusion tensor imaging, which is used to measure the integrity of the white matter. . . '

' . . . The study did not find "large-scale, systematic differences" in the brain scan measures at the end of the season, which the authors found "somewhat reassuring" and consistent with the fact that thousands of individuals have played contact sports for many years without developing progressive neurodegenerative disorders.

'However, the results do suggest that some athletes may be more susceptible to repeated head impacts that do not involve concussions, . . . '

I think it's worth including this, maybe with one or two more references. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 17:42, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

Repeated banging of the head

• In the lede, "repeated banging of the head" redirects to Stereotypic movement disorder. But another way that someone can repeatedly bang his head, is by using his own head as a weapon in an unarmed fight (e.g. by butting). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:13, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
• Or by heading the ball in football. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 19:30, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

I was thinking the first one would be covered under the sports listed. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:07, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Banging of the head

I've removed the link from repeated banging of the head that links to the page 'Stereotypic movement disorder'. This behaviour is associated not only with stereotypic movement disorder, it can also be a form of self-harm: [2][3]. Sorry, I've forgotten to add an edit summary - this was my first edit ever. Arctifox (talk) 23:45, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Brain imaging

After reading the article, I have a question. The article says one can establish a diagnosis post-mortem only, but the picture shows a visibly shrunken brain. Wouldn't it be visible on MRI, for example? Or is the point is that it cannot be told from a shrinkage due to Alzheimer's? Arctifox (talk) 00:12, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

List of sports

Shouldn't boxing be in the list?Seadowns (talk) 09:46, 23 September 2018 (UTC) Yes, it should be. I went ahead and added the number of players that have experienced CTE since out of the NFL. Alexsanchez93 (talk) 18:56, 5 October 2019 (UTC) Shouldn't NASCAR be in the list? Dale Earnhardt for example speaks about this and seeing a specialist extensiveley in his podcast. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.59.204.17 (talk) 15:35, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Harvard Football Players Study

I would like to see a brief (perhaps stub-length) article on the Harvard Football Players Study and on the Boston University (BUSPH) Football Players Health Study. MaynardClark (talk) 20:25, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

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Head injuries?

The lede as of now reads "Chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE) is a neurodegenerative disease caused by repeated head injuries.". (I've recasted the highlights to illustrate my point.) I'm not a domain expert, but my casual understanding is that CTE can occur even when there are no blows directly to the head, but that the head experiences such rapid shock that the brain rattles inside the skull. This is why jockeys and rodeo riders are at greater risk for CTE because of the violent motions which whip the head around, even if they never get actually hit on the head. I'm trying to figure out a concise way to express that, but I'd prefer confirmation that my understanding is correct before changing. --Eliyahu S ^Talk 06:22, 23 February 2020 (UTC)