Talk:Christianity and abortion/Archive 2

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Mention of "Catholics for abortion"

It is disingenuous to mention that there are people who call themselves Catholic and defend that abortion is good.

The Church's teachings come from the Magisterium.

Also, there is no "Catholic" trademark. Any baptized person gets to call himself a Catholic, even if he does not believe in the Church. Legally, nothing stops a rabid atheist to call himself a Catholic.

If an atheist presents himself for baptism, starts to call himself a Catholic, and forms the group "Catholics against the existence of God", would we mention it on an article "Christianity and the existence of God"?

Or would we consider that group to be irrelevant, and that to mention it would be a source of confusion?

It stands to reason that an article about the Church's views must quote the Church's Magisterium.

Jorge Peixoto (talk) 15:49, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

We already include the statement that the USCCB says Catholics for Choice's position is contrary to Catholic dogma. As editors, it is not our job to make these value judgments about who is Catholic enough to be included in articles on Catholics: if a group is notable and their inclusion is not undue, then we can include them, and we can also include opposition to them (as we do), but we can't remove them because people say their positions aren't Catholic. Your edit would have been questionable even if the ruling had been that the members themselves were not Catholic, rather than their positions. Please restore the section yourself. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:49, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

As a side note, you could also restore the sentence about minorities in anti-abortion denominations that are pro-choice and minorities in pro-choice denominations that oppose abortion, if you feel its inclusion is relevant. "Pro-choice Catholics aren't really Catholic" is not a valid reason to remove it. (A valid reason might be "well, obviously there are plenty of people who disagree with their denomination's stance, we don't need to say so.") Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:52, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

We do not have to judge whether they are " really Catholic", but whether they have authority to teach on behalf of the Church. As I said, would you include the position of a supposed "Catholics against the existence of God" in an article about "Christianity and the existence of God"? Jorge Peixoto (talk) 20:13, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

"We do not have to judge whether they are 'really Catholic', but whether they have authority to teach on behalf of the Church." - No, we don't. That is not our job as editors.

"would you include the position of a supposed 'Catholics against the existence of God'" - If they were notable and including them didn't constitute undue weight? Sure I would. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:31, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

This is an article about the positions of Christian Churches on abortion. No other section has a rebuttal section, one is misplaced and uninformative. - Haymaker (talk) 06:45, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Given the number of Catholics who disagree with the position, I'd say it's more than due. You're welcome to add dissenters from other religions, if they are notable. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 07:12, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Agree with Roscelese here, it is absolutely due weight to include mention that a large number of catholics including 70% of those in the UK disagree with their church's position and are in fact pro-choice. Mention of Catholics for Choice and other dissenters clearly should be included. _WikiMan^One 07:28, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

You do understand that this will take the article in a totally new, highly controversial path and will lead to unceasing dispute? - Haymaker (talk) 07:33, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually, the section's been there since the article was created in 2008. Perhaps your and Jorge's personal issues with it will take the dispute in a "totally new, highly controversial path," but the article seems just fine. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 07:38, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

I have no personal issues, to suggest that as my motivation is unwarranted and disparaging. This was an oversight I, and I suppose Jorge, were trying to resolve but as you, and I suppose WM1 are determined to see it spread through the article - here we go. - Haymaker (talk) 07:44, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Buddy, I wasn't editing wikipedia in 2008. I don't see how mentioning that there is an organization within the Catholic church that represents the views of 70% of UK catholics and half of US catholics is undue. Do you? _WikiMan^One 07:50, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

That much is obvious. I don't think you actually understand what is being discussed here. - Haymaker (talk) 08:11, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

• To suggest that I don't actually understand what is being discussed here is "unwarranted and disparaging." _WikiMan^One 08:18, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

You're advocating inclusion of material based on a UK yougov poll to overcome UNDUE rather than maintaining consistency and coherence in the article. I think it is warranted. - Haymaker (talk) 08:26, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

The USA statistic is actually 40% or thereabouts, hence my "almost half." However, thanks for indirectly causing me to realize that CFC's activities are international. To clarify what you may have meant, it's not that CFC represents all pro-choice Catholics, but rather that there are enough pro-choice Catholics that inclusion of this viewpoint is not undue, and CFC happens to be a notable organization for said viewpoint. Or you may not have meant that, and it's just my comment. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 07:58, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Hence why I said "represent the views of" x%, etc. rather than simply represent. _WikiMan^One 08:01, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Adventists on Abortion

I think this merits discussion, Adventists are a fundamentalist religious group, and yet they have a bit of a mixed position on abortion.

• http://www.adventistreview.org/2005-1513/story4.html
• http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/undergod/2011/01/adventists_and_abortion.html
• http://www.atoday.com/content/confessions-conservative-liberal
• http://news.adventist.org/2010/05/in-kenya-adventist-l.html
• http://old.spectrummagazine.org/spectrum/archive16-20/19-4gainer.pdf
• http://voices.washingtonpost.com/local-opinions/2011/01/seeking_a_hospital_that_doesnt.html

I'm sure there are many more, Adventists appear to have a very vague policy on abortions while performing them in their hospitals. Perhaps some mention of this is due? _WikiMan^One 07:41, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Here's a start, I might work more on this later and welcome collaboration. _WikiMan^One 10:21, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Seventh-day Adventists

Differing from norms within fundamental protestantism, the Adventist church has not taken an explicit position on Abortion. In a vaguely worded statement, the Adventist church stated "abortions for reasons of birth control, gender selection, or convenience are not condoned." However, women may face exceptional circumstances that present serious moral or medical dilemmas, such as significant threats to the pregnant woman's life or health, severe congenital defects in the fetus, and pregnancy resulting from rape or incest; in these cases individuals are counseled to make their own decisions. Adventist hospitals are generally providers of abortions on demand, leading to a church leader to refer to one, Washington Adventist Hospital, as an "abortion mill."

Reversions by Wikimanone

We have discussed on this talk page whether or not dissenting positions should be given coverage. Wikimanone was enthusiastically in favor of such coverage but is hours later removing it. What accounts for this break from consensus? - Haymaker (talk) 09:10, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

There is no blanket consensus for the addition of dissenting opinions. Each case needs to be discussed on a case by case basis independent of the other so as to not give undue weight to fringe organizations. Also, please stop disrupting wikipedia per WP:POINT. _WikiMan^One 09:19, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

This is the first time such a caveat is being mentioned. But since I'm such a nice guy, let's jump through these hoops - what part of what you reverted to you consider fringe? - Haymaker (talk) 09:26, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, this is the first time that any organization apart from Catholics for Choice is being mentioned. I don't appreciate your condescending tone in the previous message. Catholics for Choice has been in the page since 2008 as noted, therefore, any removal would have to be discussed on the talk page until consensus is reached either way. In the same notion, any addition of dissenting positions must be discussed on the talk page for consensus before it is added to the article. So if you want you can propose something to be discussed, but I'm now going to bed. You are being quite unharmonious by knowingly twisting opposition to removal of content from a page to be license to add controversial content without discussion. _WikiMan^One 09:32, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

I added sourced content. You reverted it claiming it to be FRINGE and asked me to discuss it here. I'm discussing it here. What parts of my edit do you think are fringe? - Haymaker (talk) 09:41, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Each case needs to be determined by its individual merits, adding a bunch of content en masse without discussing it is not very good practice. I said discuss it first, so now, let's hear your proposal for each individual addition and why it needs to be added to the article, so that the editors involved can make a clear individual decision on each addition. _WikiMan^One 09:45, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Each and every one is sourced. - Haymaker (talk) 09:46, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, and if I wanted I could start a "Catholics for Infanticide" and I could get my local newspaper to cover it, I guarantee it. Does that make it worth including in the article? Extreme case, but very similar to what you're suggesting. _WikiMan^One 09:54, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Does such an organization exist? Do you have such coverage? - Haymaker (talk) 09:55, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Your ability to miss the point is amazing. I was using a hypothetical example to show exactly why not every organization ever mentioned in the news deserves mention in any related wikipedia article, that would constituted undue weight. I'm not going to make individual arguments against each of your myriad additions because doing so would be a waste of my time. Instead, unless by some miracle of a god of some sort (should one actually exist) you get consensus to add it, I believe it should remain out of the article and will continue to remove it. Please save us the edit war and just start discussions on each individual addition as I requested. _WikiMan^One 10:01, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

I have. Every single one of them is reliably sourced. If it is really necessary just image that I wrote that 5 times and proceed from there. There is no consensus to remove this sourced content, if you're going to claim FRINGE it isn't out of place for me to ask you to prove it. - Haymaker (talk) 10:03, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually I'm claiming due weight her, you need to establish due weight. So why are each of the five I guess additions due weight, individually please? Until you provide that, we are going around in circles and I will not be a part of it. _WikiMan^One 10:06, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

OK, since you've now shifted you objections I'll now recalibrate. All of those are as important to their respective sects as CfC is to Catholicism. - Haymaker (talk) 10:09, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Prove it. As WikiManOne says, you are violating WP:POINT by adding non-notable and undue content as a petty "take that." You need to establish that these groups are important - refer to WP:N. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:04, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Historic Southern Baptist views

The wording in Christianity_and_abortion#History_of_pro-life_views is a bit dubious and I'm curious if anyone has a source that claims "Before 1980, the Southern Baptist Convention advocated for abortion rights" other than this one book. [1] gives the SBC's official resolution on abortion and it appears that we are taking what they say out of context. (For reference from googling, [2] - some guy's website, not an official archive - has what it claims to be all prior Southern Baptist Convention resolutions on abortion in case anyone is interested in seeing how the view has evolved over time). The full quote of the 1971 resolution is this:

WHEREAS, Christians in the American society today are faced with difficult decisions about abortion; and

WHEREAS, Some advocate that there be no abortion legislation, thus making the decision a purely private matter between a woman and her doctor; and

WHEREAS, Others advocate no legal abortion, or would permit abortion only if the life of the mother is threatened;

Therefore, be it RESOLVED, that this Convention express the belief that society has a responsibility to affirm through the laws of the state a high view of the sanctity of human life, including fetal life, in order to protect those who cannot protect themselves; and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we call upon Southern Baptists to work for legislation that will allow the possibility of abortion under such conditions as rape, incest, clear evidence of severe fetal deformity, and carefully ascertained evidence of the likelihood of damage to the emotional, mental, and physical health of the mother

Our article only gives the final sentence, which makes it sound more supportive of abortion than it really is. My reading of this resolution is that it (1) recognizes there is disagreement on the subject, (2) says that the SBC believes in the sanctity of human life and protecting the unborn, and (3) abortion should be legal in extreme circumstances (rape, life of the mother, etc). That's a far cry from the current language of our article, which says that the SBC "advocated for abortion rights". --B (talk) 15:57, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

B, this article has had a very difficult history. For a long period it was the playground for one editor and their very narrow POV that all Christianity from the very beginning (as in the Early Church Fathers) was supportive of abortion. I would tend to ignore what the article currently says, use reliable references to support your work, and edit the article to reflect actual, complete, realistic positions of Christian Churches. The reality is that very, very few Christian churches teach that life is unimportant when it comes to the desires of the mother to live a care-free life style. Yes, I know that was a poke in the eye to some of our pro-abortion editors, but I couldn't help myself. Cheers, -^StormRider 16:10, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Cute, but I recommend that you devote your attention to improving the article instead of to making rude comments about other editors and their political beliefs. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:17, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I have modified the text to more accurately reflect the actual text. There's a lot more that could be said, but I don't know that the entire article needs to be about the Southern Baptist view. The second paragraph in that section is a bit concerning as well. It says that the IRS stripping racist organizations of their tax-exempt status is what created the evangelical resurgence of the 1970s. As interesting as that is, (1) two of the three refs given have nothing to do with it as far as I can see and the third is from a book called "Thy Kingdom Come: How the Religious Right Distorts the Faith and Threatens America" - I don't know that it necessarily deserves a lot of weight. (2) This article is about abortion, not about the Southern Baptist Convention conservative resurgence. This article isn't even arguing that abortion led to the resurgence, so it seems strange to have some guy's book refuting the claim. I don't want to just blindly remove it and certainly I'm sensitive to my own biases here, so I'm throwing this out there. Tonight when I have more time, I may sit down and read more of the portion of the book that Google gives us to see if it's worth just migrating it to the article about the conservative resurgence. --B (talk) 17:39, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

There is often topic-bleed in articles; when found the off-topic comments should be deleted. There is no need to discuss it, but make your edit reason clear and only delete the off-topic material.

As far as being "cute", Roselese, you are off base (feeling defensive?). If what I stated is accurate then just do it i.e. use reliable references for statements and if references don't support the statement, then delete it. This article for some time has been "owned" by a very small group that were adamant Christianity was pro-abortion. They "proved" this by distorting references and taking statements out of context. The fact that B quickly saw this serves as evidence what I say is accurate. On the other hand, are you proposing we just ignore these distortions to meet political agendas or correct them. Your comment is confusing. Word of advice, I will devote my attentions wherever I choose and you are hardly in a position to guide the attentions of any editors. Cheers! -^StormRider 21:27, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm not proposing "we" do anything. I'm proposing that you, Storm Rider, behave in a civil manner without making personal attacks. No one in this article has ever argued that Christianity was "pro-abortion," and making false claims about other editors isn't likely to win you any favors. If you can edit in a verifiable and neutral manner, I encourage you to do so. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 23:49, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

The fact that B agrees with you does not prove a thing, he often takes a position promoting an anti-choice viewpoint (from my perspective) in articles. If there are distortions then they must be clearly discussed first before making unilateral edits. Accusing people of ownership is not WP:AGF, in fact the whole tone of your message to Roselese coes not seem to assume good faith. _WM^O 21:31, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

It's funny that you speak of AGF while at the same time accusing me of bad faith. --B (talk) 22:03, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Saying I disagree with your perspective is not bad faith, I just clearly stated that I was stating from my perspective.. I don't doubt that you're probably at least thinking you're improving the encyclopedia and not trying to use it to push an agenda. Why so defensive? _WM^O 22:57, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

That's extremely insulting. You're basically saying that I'm so stupid that I can't see (the obvious truth in your mind) that I have a conservative agenda. The only "agenda" I'm promoting on Wikipedia is neutrality. We can disagree about whether "pro-life" or "anti-abortion" is the more correct term to use, but you take it even further and claim that anyone who disagrees with you (or, at least me in particular) has and agenda and is too stupid to realize it. I have a sinking feeling this is going to end up at arbitration, particularly when you come here and have nothing whatsoever to say about the article in question, but, rather about me. --B (talk) 23:04, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't think you're actively intentionally pushing an agenda, that wouldn't be assuming good faith. The whole of wikipedia has an extreme anti-abortion/women's health viewpoint and it seems every time I try to correct to institute a npov that in an article I run into a cartel of anti-choice activists who don't want "their" article to be anything but a complete endorsement of their positions is somehow censorship. I did not mean to be insulting you, perhaps I shouldn't group you into this group, I do appreciate that you seek consensus before unilaterally removing/adding material. _WM^O 23:09, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Here's the thing, when you say that people who oppose abortion (pro-life, anti-abortion, whatever) oppose women's health, that's a fallacy. It would be like saying that the guy who doesn't want his store robbed opposes the robber being able to put food on his table. Pro-life (anti-abortion, whatever) people aren't anti-choice and aren't anti-women's health - they are opposed to abortion, to varying degrees. Except for a few radicals, nobody opposes abortion when it's necessary to save the life of the mother. Wikipedia does not have to endorse the pro-life view nor should it endorse questionable science that is sometimes used, but it certainly shouldn't go out of its way to attack the view either. This particular article (Christianity and abortion) has at least two problems that I started out seeking to fix. One of them is that it took the 1971 SBC statement out of context. I believe that the new language fixes this. The other is that second statement that deals with the IRS and racism. The history of Christian churches and racism is deplorable. I wasn't alive back then, so I have no idea what people were thinking when they thought that racial discrimination in God's house was a good idea. However, as bad as it was, the question is whether it has anything to do with this article. The paragraph implies that it is offered to refute the claim that abortion was a rallying cry for evangelicals that led to the evangelical resurgence of the 1970s - the paragraph claims that it wasn't abortion at all, but rather racism. However, the article makes no such claim about the evangelical resurgence, so there's hardly anything relevant to the topic to refute. And even if there were, it's a source that, from the title of the book, is not exactly an unbiased arbiter of the evangelical movement. So my concerns are twofold - (1) does it even belong here to begin with and (2) can we find a less inflammatory source to verify it? --B (talk) 23:34, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

It is strange how editors assume they know who I am talking about. The editor that "owned" this articled is not editing at present. It was she who twisted references or took them out of context to achieve agenda. You guys are relatively new to the article and I don't know you from Adam/Eve and vice-versa. When you speak of AGF, you must first exhibit that same trait otherwise it becomes rather hypocritical accusation. Again, nothing I wrote applies directly to this group; however, if the shoe fits by all means wear the dang thing and be proud of it.

The entire intent of what I have written applies to using reliable references and using them appropriately. Neutrality is the main concern. To me the article should focus on what Christian churches teach and not what individual members of churches believe. There are over 36,000 Christian denominations; members believe a whole host of things that are not taught by their respective churches. What we can verify is what churches teach; it is much harder to verify the beliefs of individuals.

I see no reason to debate weather or not a statement is supported by a reference. If it is not supported, it is not supported and should be deleted. Of course, if we aren't AGF of others I suppose every edit to the article can be discussed here first and then by consensus made to the article. Tiresome, redundant, and distrustful, but it happens on Wikipedia from time to time. What is your pleasure? -^StormRider 23:24, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

If the editor that "owned" the article isn't here, then let's leave that prior dispute out of it and try to start anew. --B (talk) 23:34, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Back on the actual topic, I have removed the section in question and added the media's description of the abortion stance. The claim in this book about racism is verifiably false and wholly irrelevant. The same Southern Baptist Convention that passed the 1971 (pre-Roe) resolutions against abortion also passed a resolution against racism saying we should "renew our commitment to the Bible teaching of justice for all human beings regardless of race, and that we work earnestly for racial justice in public education, employment, health care, housing, consumer concerns and citizen participation in the political process" and calling racism "theologically untenable, politically destructive and fatally dehumanizing. The convention also defeated an amendment that would have added opposition to race-based quotas.[3] For our article to claim that racism is what led to the conservative resurgence is verifiably false and irrelevant to an article about abortion. --B (talk) 12:49, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

"Catholic Answers" and "Facts of Life"

These are publications by anti-abortion advocates. It's irrelevant how much the authors believe that the RCC has always taught that life begins at fertilization, or more importantly, how much they want to make other people believe this, because both primary sources and modern scholarly sources (ie. reliable sources) say exactly the opposite. This is detailed at length in Ensoulment. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 04:16, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Catholic Answers is not "anti-abortion advocates" any more then any Catholic organization that follows the teachings of the church. Their mission statement has nothing to do with abortion. They are an organization thats primary mission is present authentic Catholic teaching to the people. People associated with Catholic Answers have written several books both under their own names and under the banner of Catholic Answers. Every source has to be evaluated on their own merits. Calling "Catholic Answers" anti-abortion advocates is just name calling. Also the discussion of ensoulment and when life begins are two different items and is confusing the issue. If you read the article it specifically says "Even when the prevailing scientific theory consider that early abortion was the killing of what was not yet a human being, the Church condemned all procuring of abortion." The discussion of when life begins is independent of when ensoulment occurs. Marauder40 (talk) 14:40, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Can you find reliable sources (ie. not non-scholarly anti-abortion advocates, which CA is, check out their article) which make the distinction between "it has no human soul" and "it isn't a human life"? And which say that the RCC has always taught that life begins at fertilization? I'm sorry, but your personal opinion that they're not the same thing isn't really important. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:43, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Without even search the line in the Ensoulment article states "For, though the opinion of Aristotle, or similar speculations, regarding the time when the rational soul is infused into the embryo, were practically accepted for many centuries still it was always held by the Church that he who destroyed what was to be a man was guilty of destroying a human life." It is not just personal opinion that the debate on ensoulment does not equal the debate on when human life begins "In the course of history, the Fathers of the Church, her Pastors and her Doctors have taught the same doctrine [that human life must be protected and favored from the beginning, just as at the various stages of its development] - the various opinions on the infusion of the spiritual soul did not introduce any doubt about the illicitness of abortion. It is true that in the Middle Ages, when the opinion was generally held that the spiritual soul was not present until after the first few weeks, a distinction was made in the evaluation of the sin and the gravity of penal sanctions. Excellent authors allowed for this first period more lenient case solutions which they rejected for following periods. But it was never denied at that time that procured abortion, even during the first days, was objectively grave fault. This condemnation was in fact unanimous."Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Declaration on Procured Abortion . It honestly sounds like you are reading the Ensoulment article with blinders in a way to justify abortion. Marauder40 (talk) 16:04, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

No dude, I'm serious when I ask you for a real source that makes a distinction between "it has no human soul" and "it's not a human life." Your interpretation of a source that doesn't say that is not up to RS standards. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:09, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

First off "dude", I haven't made any proposals for changes to the article. I am not the IP editor. The clarification I had was a simplificaton of the terminology and the theology. The statement from the "Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Declaration on Procured Abortion" section is pretty clear on the meaning.Marauder40 (talk) 16:22, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I know (or am reasonably sure) you're not the IP editor. However, you're making the same claim that he is, meaning that if you intend it to be in any way relevant to the article, rather than just random chatter because you're bored, you need to provide a source, same as he does. (As I said, your interpretation of the Declaration on Procured Abortion would not be acceptable as a source - it doesn't say what you're claiming. In fact, it confirms that the position used to be delayed ensoulment! Fancy that.) Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:29, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Pure and simple, the Ensoulment arguement does not equal the abortion arguement. The definition of when a ensoulment happens has developed over history. The "amount" of sin associated with an abortion at any of those stages has changed over different stages. The Declartion is very clear that it is and has been always a teaching of the Church that an abortion at any stage is wrong. The ensoulment issue is a red-hearing introduced just to cause confusion.Marauder40 (talk) 16:37, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Since the IP is claiming that the RCC has always taught that life begins at conception, no, that isn't a red herring. It's actually the issue at hand. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:39, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

It is pretty clear you don't understand the theology behind the debate. It is pretty confusing unless you read the entire things written by Aquinas, the Vatican, etc. instead of just random snippets taken out of context. In it's simpliest format when ensoulment happens isn't important in whether abortion is a sin or not. Abortion at any stage is a sin. Whether the fetus has a soul at day one or day 90 or what isn't the problem. Abortion kills a human whether it has a soul or not, that is why it is always wrong. The mass of cells will become a human, it won't become a fish, a whale or anything else. That is why the discussion of ensoulment and abortion are two different things. The ensoulment arguement only applies to what some medieval theologians thought was the degree of sin. They still felt it was a sin. The ensoulment debate is a seperate debate from the abortion debate. Marauder40 (talk) 16:53, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

That's nice, but it's also not within the scope of this discussion. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:54, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I think editor 150.108.232.34 imposed his/her own view on what the "anti-abortion advocates" actually say. They do not say that "the Church has consistently taught that life begins at conception". What they say is that the Church has never taught that human life does not begin at conception, which is not the same thing. Some decisions by Church authorities took account of the then prevailing (believed to be scientific) view that specifically human life began later (and that the beginning varied according to sex), but the Church never made that view part of its teaching. Rather than saying that the Church has always taught that human life does begin at conception, what should be said is that the Church has never taught that human life does not begin at conception.

In interpreting the absence of official adoption of the delayed-animation view as meaning that the Church taught the contrary view, editor 150.108.232.34 has, I suspect, been provoked by a similar but opposing slanted interpretation suggested elsewhere in the article. The statement by other writers - should we, by analogy with "anti-abortion advocates", call them "pro-abortion advocates"? - that in Church law a distinction was made between abortion and murder is made to suggest falsely that in the Church's view abortion, not being murder, was not wrong, sinful and forbidden. Abortion and murder are treated differently in Church law today too, but that does not mean that the Church approves of or condones either of the two.

Luker is represented as saying that "there was disagreement on whether early abortion was wrong". Luker does claim that "different sources of church teachings and laws simply did not agree on the penalties for abortion or on whether early abortion is wrong" (p. 13), but presents as evidence only that early Church councils did not enact specific sanctions against those who committed abortion, but only against those who committed abortion after a sexual crime such as adultery or prostitution. There were many other sins for which those early Church councils enacted no specific sanctions, but that does not mean that the councils condoned or approved of those sins. In today's canon law, in which a specific sanction is enacted for procured abortion, the absence of a specific canonical sanction for many other sins does not mean that those sins are condoned or approved of. On that basis it could be argued that "there is disagreement today on whether infanticide or murder of an adult by a lay person is wrong" and that the Church today condones or approves of murder except by clerics or religious! In view of the lack of evidence produced by Luker, I think it would be more correct to describe what Luker says as a "claim", but I am leaving "Luker says".

What Bakke really says I do not know. Nor am I sufficiently interested in this field to think it worth going to the expense and trouble of acquiring the book. I cannot help suspecting that Bakke too may perhaps have been interpreted to fit preconceived ideas. While I am presuming good faith with regard to what the article attributes to Bakke, I will nonetheless amend it to read "Bakke says", rather than have the article state a particular view is true and merely give a footnote reference to Bakke for its truth. Esoglou (talk) 16:14, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

That would be an abuse of attribution rules. If you're going to attribute statements to Bakke because you don't believe them, you must also attribute statements that you do believe, such as the statements that early Christians saw abortion as wrong even before ensoulment or that they believed it was a serious sin. Luker and Bakke are among the best sources that we have; your personal beliefs are not enough to discredit them.

Whence are you deriving this claim that "the Church has never taught that human life does not begin at conception"? Remember, even if it's true (which is questionable), we would need a reliable source that actually says so - we couldn't just look at the alleged absence and comment on it, because that would be original research. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:23, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't follow. Surely it is no abuse of attribution rules to attribute statements to their authors. Indeed, if the statements are controversial, they should be attributed to their authors. Unless I am mistaken, the other two sources that were previously cited as saying the same thing as Bakke, do not in fact say the same. I do presume that Bakke did actually make the statement, even if I feared that it might have been taken out of context, like Luker's. And I do not disbelieve the statement. And I have no objection to having the authors of any other controversial statements mentioned also.

A comment on a Talk page does not need citation of a reliable source in the same way as a statement in an article. When do you imagine that the Church taught that human life did not begin at conception? Some of its decisions may have presumed (rightly or wrongly) that human life did not begin at conception. Other decisions have presumed (rightly, no doubt) that Constantinople is east of Rome, but you can't say that the Church taught this fact of geography. Esoglou (talk) 17:21, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm referring to the POV problem in saying "X" as if it is fact and "Bakke says Y" as if it's his personal opinion, when the sources are equally reliable or when Bakke is actually more reliable.

I may have been misinterpreting you - I thought you were suggesting that we say in the article that "the Church has never taught that human life does not begin at conception." This would be inappropriate if no source said so.

I'm not the one trying to insert claims about what the Church has always taught, so there's no reason to confront me about it. I'm perfectly happy to say that the church believed such or held such, as substantiated by all the sources. It is the IP user who is claiming that the church has always taught this, which is flatly untrue. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:25, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

As my very first comment I indicated that I too disagree with the IP editor. What we two disagree on seems to be only the legitimacy of indicating Bakke as the source of the statement on which you set so much store. As long as Bakke is the only source cited, there is, I hold, good reason to indicate the author. What Bakke says is not generally considered a definitive ex cathedra declaration. Just add one or two valid sources that agree with Bakke, and there will no longer be any disagreement between us on the matter (I think). Esoglou (talk) 20:25, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Early Christians and delayed hominization

Which statements, specifically, were you thinking of? The bit about early Christians believing in delayed hominization is cited to three sources here (Bakke, bioethics, stemcells) and there are probably more at Ensoulment that we could borrow. It isn't necessary to attribute this to one scholar. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:30, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I was thinking about the statement, "There is evidence that some very early Christians believed, as the Greeks did, in delayed ensoulment, or that a fetus does not have a soul until quickening, and therefore early abortion was not murder", for which Bakke, bioethics and religioustolerance were cited. Am I wrong in thinking that bioethics and religioustolerance do not in fact state that? Note that I am not questioning the truth of the statement, only the sufficiency of its verifiability. Esoglou (talk) 21:01, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Bioethics describes it as the "dominant" view from Aristotle until 1869, and Stemcells also notes that early Christians believed in the distinction even if it didn't necessarily change their views on the sinfulness of abortion. I don't have a problem removing RT.org if you don't think it supports the text - we have better sources. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:09, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Does bioethics attribute the view specifically to early Christians (early Christians is what the section is about)? Not, as far as I can see, in the page that is linked to. Stemcells is not cited for the sentence that I quoted. Why don't you just add the better sources? Esoglou (talk) 21:29, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Bioethics says the view was held from Aristotle through 1869, which more than encompasses the period we're talking about. Why would we assume early Christians were exempted if the source doesn't say so? Stemcells is cited for "early Christians believed abortion was a sin before ensoulment," a slightly later sentence, but if you think two refs aren't enough for the sentence you quotes, we could add a ref to stemcells. The "better sources" I refer to are the ones already mentioned, viz. Bakke, bioethics, stemcells. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:38, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Just attach to the statement a citation of better resources. You ask why not present bioethics as (implicitly) saying that early Christians held the view generally (though presumably not universally) held from Aristotle to mid-19th century. Because of rules about original research and verifiability. Good night. Esoglou (talk) 21:51, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

What's original research about it? It says the view was held during the period we're discussing. If we had a source that said "Texas was an independent nation from 1836 to 1846," we wouldn't ask for a source that said it was an independent nation in 1840. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:56, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Surely we have discussed this matter more than enough. But I will answer your question. You interpret the source as saying that the early Christians too followed the general view of the time on that matter. The source, if I remember right, does not actually say that. Esoglou (talk) 13:11, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

The interpretation seems to me to be clearly supported by the sentences, "Following Aristotle, various thinkers—including Thomas Aquinas—thought that only the abortion of an animated fetus constituted homicide. ... By and large, this view remained dominant until 1869..." This gives us a 2,200 year period from Aristotle's prime years to 1869 in which the dominant view was that animation determined homicide. In the given continuum, only non-Western thought would not be covered. Early Christians are covered. Binksternet (talk) 14:23, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

You surely know that Thomas Aquinas lived a millennium after the period of early Christianity. Is it not a mere interpretation and a synthesis to say that the early Christians were among the "various thinkers" who followed Aristotle? (You surely know that "various" does not have to mean "all".) Is it not a mere interpretation and a synthesis to say that the early Christians did adopt "the dominant view" without forming any distinct view of their own? I am not denying that the early Christians were among the various thinkers who followed Aristotle or that they adopted the dominant view, but is that statement wikiverified on the basis of "bioethics"? I am amazed that, out of all the other possible sources that must be available, there has been such insistence on the validity of this particular source, "bioethics", for wikiverification of this point. Why not be satisfied with wikiverifying it on the basis of Bakke and/or other reliable sources? Esoglou (talk) 16:25, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

As I said above - the source says this was the dominant view. It doesn't exempt any specific groups. Why would we assume that early Christians did not believe it, without a source saying they didn't? Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:01, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

First, thank you for agreeing that "religioustolerance" does not make the statement that was attributed to it. I still don't see how "bioethics" can be cited for the same statement. In Wikipedia we should not "assume" (your word) anything whatever about the views of early Christians. Any statement in Wikipedia about their beliefs or disbeliefs must be supported by a reliable source that, of itself and not by synthesis or other form of argumentation, makes that statement. The Wikipedia rule reads: "Even with well-sourced material, if you use it out of context, or to advance a position not directly and explicitly supported by the source, you are engaging in original research" (bolding in the original). I see where "bioethics" speaks directly and explicitly of the 13th century (Aquinas) and the 19th (Pius IX) with regard to following or not following Aristotle, but not where it speaks directly and explicitly of early Christianity's attitude to Aristotle's view. One could even argue - a matter of synthesis and argumentation - that "bioethics" contrasts the unambiguous stance of early Christianity, in whose literature the practice of abortion - here "bioethics" does not distinguish between early and late abortion - "was standardly condemned", with "the historical position of the Church", which, according to "bioethics", "has been somewhat ambiguous" in the course of the succeeding centuries. Your position is the opposite of this argumentation, but is it any more consonant with Wikipedia rules? Since you have removed the "failed verification" tag, you must surely be able to quote the statement in "bioethics" that, of itself and not by synthesis or other form of argumentation, directly and explicitly says that early Christians believed that early abortion was not murder. Please quote it to me. Esoglou (talk) 19:17, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps you should take it to the original research noticeboard if you believe that it is original research. I've already provided the relevant quote, which states that this was the dominant view during the period in question. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 03:43, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

... but does not state that the dominant view was shared by that minority who were Christians. It's their view, not the dominant one, that's in question. Esoglou (talk) 09:45, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

To assume that their view was different, in the absence of a source that says so, contravenes WP:V. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:22, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

To assume that their view was the same, in the absence of a source that "directly and explicitly" (WP:OR), "clearly and directly" (WP:V) says so, contravenes WP:OR. This assumption, not the other, has been inserted into the article, thereby actually (not just hypothetically) contravening Wikipedia rules. Esoglou (talk) 18:00, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

As I said, you're quite welcome to bring it to the original research noticeboard if you believe it is original research. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 03:37, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Done. Esoglou (talk) 17:26, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I interpret the discussion on the noticeboard as indicating that there are no grounds for claiming that "bioethics" says the early Christians upheld the Aristotelian theory. May I therefore restore the tag? Or would it be better to remove immediately the claim that the statement is based on the "bioethics" book? Esoglou (talk) 09:28, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Schroedel and Kelly

Thanks. However that turns out, are you still hoping to find more sources than Bakke? I was bored so I Googled some early Christian theologians + ensoulment, and this book seems pretty clear. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:17, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Schroedel's view that "most early Christians accepted the Aristotelian view that abortion was acceptable and the fetus a part of the pregnant woman" is quite obviously an immensely more wikicitable source about early Christian attitudes than one that talks about the majority view accepted by various people while saying nothing whatever about the attitude of early Christians (people who, as you know, rejected the majority view on questions such as the legitimacy of gladiatorial games and the burning of incense as a sign of loyalty to the state). Schroedel, who cites sources for various other statements of hers, cites none for her view on this matter. She quotes not even one early Christian expression of her view, and makes no attempt to explain how she concluded that the only early Christians whom she does mention, second-century Tertullian and the even earlier Didache, and who she admits contradict her view, represented merely a minority of early Christians. Nor does she explain on what grounds she thinks that the early Christians, who considered self-castration immoral, nevertheless considered it acceptable for a woman to remove what was "a part of the pregnant woman". But her view can certainly be cited in Wikipedia - along with the flatly contradictory view expressed by Evelyn B. Kelly. Esoglou (talk) 07:04, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I now regret following the link from Wikipedia:NORN. I hate you all.

There are many bad sources in this article; namely the ones that are not published scholarly sources from academic presses. Picking the last two sources; Schroedel is a valid source, EB Kelly is not. Specifically, in the fetus a person? (page 8), Schroedel explains the aims of her text:

• "developing a comprehensive history of ideas and policies regarding fetal protection"
• "compile and analyze case and statutory laws in the fifty states that relate to fetal protection"
• "examine more broadly the relationship between state fetal policies and the role of states in protecting society's most vulnerable citizens."

The first two points appear to me to be as close to a literature search and systemic review summarizing the prevailing scientific historic consensus. The third bullet point appears to be Schroedel's own primary research.

Except for current opinion, I think all the popular books and webpages need to be purged from the references. Rknight (talk) 02:56, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Why is Kelly's book to be considered an invalid source? Because it is published by ABC-Clio/Greenwood associated with Praeger and Linworth/Librarires Unlimited? Strange argument. Esoglou (talk) 16:45, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

How about the fact that Kelly is not a researcher; that she is dedicated neither to Early Christianity nor to abortion? Kelly is a generalist who writes on many topics, and in the cited book we are not shown her source for the statement she made. Binksternet (talk) 17:37, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Is that a fact? To me her book seems on the contrary to prove her a researcher. On the attitude to abortion among early Christians her work seems, to say the very least, to be no weaker than that of a writer who among early Christian sources cites only some that say that abortion is murder even before ensoulment and on a par with breaking the Ten Commandments, and then, for some undisclosed reason, says that these her only cited sources represented a mere minority view among early Christians. The limitation of Schroedel's field of research is indicated in the title of her book, "Is the fetus a person?: a comparison of policies across the fifty states'. Kelly maintains a rigorously neutral position on the morality of abortion, while Schroedel takes a decidedly "pro-choice" position, and in that sense, to use your own words, is very much "dedicated to abortion". Esoglou (talk) 19:13, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Editors, regardless of your personal opinions regarding bias or source validity, wikipedia has a clear policy regarding which sources should be given preference. In this case, the scholarly work written by the professional academic that summarizes the consensus. Everybody please keep in mind WP:RNPOV. You can write something like "Certain adherents of Christianity believe snickerdoodles are wrong, and also believe that they have always believed snickerdoodles are wrong; however, the findings of modern historians and archaeologists such as Keebler contradict that belief, having found that early Christians enjoyed snickerdoodles." Rknight (talk) 01:43, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Kelly, the popular generalist author, does not compare to Schroedel. Binksternet (talk) 03:41, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Personal opinions about the relative worth of scholars do not count in Wikipedia. Schroedel should not be censored out of Wikipedia. Neither should Kelly. Agreed? Esoglou (talk) 06:16, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Nobody is censoring anybody. However, if you must use a source from a non-expert in the field, then you must make it clear that it's a popular opinion that differs from that of the academic scholars' consensus. Please be aware of WP:NPOV. Rknight (talk) 08:28, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Nobody, that is, except Binksternet. Esoglou (talk) 11:42, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

New article suggestion: Lutherans For Life

I found a handful of good references for Lutherans For Life on Google books, so somebody should write that article. They meet general notability requirements. Binksternet (talk) 16:35, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I think we should decide first what we want the scope of the article to be. Pro-choice Catholics make up 70% of the Catholic population in some locations and, the large number of other existing sources totally aside, have been seen as an important enough issue by the RCC to merit a declaration from the USCCB on the subject, to merit disciplinary measures against people of the cloth involved, etc. Are LFL equally influential? Or are we going to include every single faction of every single denomination? Must it be a formal group, or is it enough to incorporate in the many articles about pro-choice evangelicals who don't seem to be part of an organization?

As a side note, to what GBooks hits are you referring? I only get one that discusses it in any detail. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:45, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

These have a bit each:

• Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pennsylvania v. Casey (1992)
• Religion and public life in the midwest: America's common denominator?
• American Grace: How Religion Divides and Unites Us
• "Lutherans for Life proudly joins all other pro-life groups to work diligently to restore the value of human life." (1972)
• No caption needed

These sources are not enough to write a fine new B-class article; they are only enough to write a stub or maybe start article. Binksternet (talk) 06:09, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

American Grace was the one I was referring to; the others (which are visible; it's impossible to tell from Mission Lamp how in-depth the coverage is) are passing mentions, not enough for notability. (The court document appears to be part of an amicus, not third-party.) Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 06:16, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Official Church Belief vs. Local Church Belief vs. Practice

Somewhere in this article, we need to state that we are reporting only the official church belief on abortion. In the case of Catholicism, the official church stance is that all abortions are forbidden. At the local church, it is possible to be Catholic and never have heard your priest mention abortion. At the practical level, 28% of abortions are done by women who identify at Catholic. (http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html) It is really misleading to say that all members of a particular Christian denomination subscribe to a belief just because it is officially on the books. How many Christians are even sure what their denomination's official policy is? Jeffmm1 (talk) 17:25, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

This is similar to what I mentioned above with regard to Lutherans for Life. We should probably report the official view and significant majority views (so if you've got statistics on Catholics and abortion, put 'em here and we'll talk about whether they should be added - I have some opinion polls bookmarked somewhere which I was going to use to expand Catholicism and abortion but I'm not sure I can dredge them up at the moment). I don't think we're saying that all Catholics, for example, believe abortion is wrong - I feel we're clear enough in our language by saying "the RCC" rather than "Catholics" - but if you think we could better convey that these are official positions rather than positions held by all members of a denomination, go ahead and make the changes you feel are necessary. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:36, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Roscelese, thanks for your comments and concern. I agree with you. Unfortunately, I don't have any statistics about abortion-belief broken down by denomination, and I don't know if any study like this has even been done. I will say that parts of this article are highly misleading. The article states "The Catholic Church opposes procedures whose purpose is to destroy an embryo or fetus." A more accurate statement would be "The official position of the international leadership of the Catholic Church is that abortion is always wrong, but in practice this position varies greatly from congregation to congregation." I don't know if we have enough information to talk about stats for individuals and parishes, but we need to at least make it clear that this is merely an official position of the Vatican. The same goes for other churches as well. (This also goes for other positions as well. Even in the very conservative RCA homosexuality is being debated.) Jeffmm1 (talk) 22:49, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

It would be difficult to include your proposed "in practice this position varies greatly from congregation to congregation" without good sourcing. I'm skeptical of the idea that any "congregations" (as opposed to individuals who may nevertheless make up the majority of these congregations) have these views, but even if they did, we would need third-party sources stating that a significant number of congregations do, not just the statements of the congregations themselves. (Note also that, although your statement that a local priest might never mention abortion is true, it doesn't indicate support for abortion rights, and we also can't cite an absence.) Anyway, whenever I dig up those polls (of individuals) for the other article, I'll try to remember to include a brief summary here as well. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 02:16, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind just citing the Churchs' official beliefs. Those are much easier to cite and avoids questions about what constitutes descent and how much time should be given to each etc, etc. - Haymaker (talk) 16:04, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

The problem is the notable cases of dissent (not "descent"). Pro-choice evangelicals have certainly been the topic of a number of news articles though I don't know how it works out numerically - however, given that in some locales pro-choice Catholics outnumber the adherents of official dogma more than 2 to 1, it would seem to be a WP:UNDUE issue not to include them. That's why I keep asking you for reliable third-party sources to attest the notability of these groups you keep adding. The Catholic dissenting position is notable. You've yet to prove that "pro-life" dissenters are notable. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:07, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

With all the sources that have been brought up and the fact that some of them have their own articles I didn't really know that was still an issue. - Haymaker (talk) 17:33, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

If by "some of them" you're referring to Anglicans for Life (ie. one, not some) then you should know that it's up for deletion on grounds of lack of notability, since no one has found significant coverage in reliable sources. I hope you're not referring to LifeNews and the NRLC when you mention "sources"! That would be funny. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:46, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

If, as seems likely, Catholics are more numerous than all other Christians combined, it is to be expected that Catholic dissenters will be more numerous than dissenters from all the other churches taken together, and that it will be much easier to find citable evidence of their existence. But there are no clear grounds for presenting Catholic dissenters as proportionately (in relation to the total number of Catholics) more significant than dissenters from the official position of other churches. Jeffmm1 rightly said that "we need to state that we are reporting only the official church belief on abortion". Let us keep to that "only". Esoglou (talk) 18:34, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Oh, this has nothing to do with raw numbers. As I said, in the UK for example, 70% of Catholics support abortion rights. (90% in cases of rape, and 93% where the health of the pregnant woman is concerned.) That's ninety-three percent of UK Catholics who don't agree with this dogma. Not including a mention seems to violate WP:UNDUE in a big way. (The numbers for the US are lower, but still significant enough to include - they're about half, and not all those surveys ask about rape/health exceptions either.)

Although Catholics for Choice is clearly notable where these "pro-life" dissenters are not, I still don't think we necessarily have to mention them - I'm sure there are pro-choice Catholics who are not members. Likewise, Dombrowski. But since the dissenting position is so significant among Catholics, it ought to be included. If we can find reliable sources that state that other denominations also have significant dissenting minorities, let's include those too. (Also, I got around to looking up the numbers for evangelicals - approximately a third support abortion rights in most or all circumstances.) Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:07, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

British Catholics are around half of a percent of the Catholic population so I'm not sure why you keep bringing this up, also, for the life of me I cannot find the survey you keep referencing.

If you want to discuss prominent theologians who disagree with their Churchs' positions I can find more mainliners (particularly Anglicans and Lutherans) that you can shake a stick at. - Haymaker (talk) 21:51, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

The UK survey is here, if that's the one you can't find. At this point, Esoglou seems to be the one strongly in favor of removing individuals who dissent, so I'll let you two figure that one out. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:05, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Oh, you mean this yougov internet poll in which 30% of British Catholics support access to abortion before 20 weeks? I support Esoglou's recent edit. This article should cover the positions of the Churchs it covers. - Haymaker (talk) 22:14, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm referencing the results reported by a reliable source. Your implication that the poll's methodology was poor is unsupported. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:35, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm referencing the results as well and FYI, yougov only conducts online polls. - Haymaker (talk) 22:39, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

In that case (since you say that the poll results don't substantiate the claim that most British Catholics oppose the official RCC position), you must be suggesting that the RCC admits exceptions in cases of rape, fetal deformity, etc. This isn't the case; I encourage you to read Catholicism and abortion and educate yourself on RCC teaching. Also, "on the internet" =/= "open to anyone who feels like responding without regard for proper sampling." Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 23:02, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

It might be easier just to say how many abortions are performed on Catholic women. I bet that information is available for certain locations and times. Binksternet (talk) 19:14, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

The previous comments seem to show a confusion between Catholic teaching on deliberate direct abortion, which it denounces as always wrong and sinful, and the quite distinct question of whether it should be punishable by civil law. Adultery is generally considered wrong and sinful, but in most Western countries it is not a criminal offence. So too prostitution is considered wrong and sinful, but it has not always been a punishable civil offence. It wasn't so even in the Papal States! And it isn't a criminal offence everywhere even today. Esoglou (talk) 19:44, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

The RCC does, however, strongly push against the legality of abortion. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:49, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it does. Just now, in Australia, it is pushing for the criminalization of the purchase of sex, rather than the sale of sex, in other words, for adoption of the Swedish system of hitting the prostitutes' users, not the prostitutes. A legal question, not a question of doctrine, one on which Catholics can disagree without being unfaithful to the Church's teaching. Esoglou (talk) 20:33, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Certain prominent members of the RCC hierarchy, including, y'know, the Pope, would disagree with you. See Catholicism and abortion. I appreciate your elucidation of the distinction in the case of prostitution in Australia, but the circumstances are not the same here. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:47, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

I am not saying that the circumstances are exactly the same in (de)criminalization of abortion and of adultery. Directly destroying human life, even if not yet an individuated human being or person, is according to Catholic teaching a gravely immoral action, and every possible effort should be made to prevent it. However, there are Catholic moralists who, for instance, hold that a legislator may in good conscience vote for a law that does not criminalize abortion within the first x weeks of pregnancy for the purpose of avoiding legislation decriminalizing abortion within x+y weeks of pregnancy; the legislator still recognizes and opposes as far as is feasible the undoubted evil of abortion even within x weeks of pregnancy, but has to be satisfied with limiting the evil. And there are other Catholic moralists who disagree with that opinion and say that the legislator may not vote for the evil even in that situation. Esoglou (talk) 21:27, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

We might as well be talking about all the Jews who eat pork or all the Muslims who drink. - Haymaker (talk) 21:51, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Are you really hoping to base any position on the premise that all Jews keep kosher? Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:05, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Read my comment again. - Haymaker (talk) 22:14, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

You're suggesting that they're a statistically or encyclopedically insignificant group, which is an idiotic suggestion, as is the suggestion that we should write only about what the hierarchy dictates even when people who agree with those positions are not only a statistically significant minority but actually a majority. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:35, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Repeated rvt to "2010"

An editor keeps reverting this and other abortion related articles to "2010" in order to remove a perceived POV bias. Personally I am amazed they haven't yet been blocked due to 1R restrictions. Even without that, discussion is necessary to remove over a years worth of work on an article. Please address your POV issues instead of wholesale reverts.Marauder40 (talk) 13:11, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

General sanctions apply to this article

This article is under a 1RR restriction per the General Sanctions on all abortion-related articles. At least one editor seems to have recently gone past 1RR in 24 hours. If this continues, admins may issue blocks. There has been an upsurge of new edits of the article since 1 September but no corresponding discussion of issues on the talk page. Please try to gain consensus for any extensive change. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 14:43, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Illustrations

I deleted two pictures because of his bad quality. The second was also very offensive thowards the Catholic Church and even worst there wasn't any conclusive evidence that the campaigner was a Christian or had anything to do with Christianity and Catholicism.82.154.85.23 (talk) 22:39, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

There is no need to worry about offending the Catholic Church. There is no good reason to delete the images, so I restored them. Binksternet (talk) 22:44, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

The second image doesn't have any evidence that it is by a Catholic campaigner. Since there is no evidence that it is related to Christianity, except as a protest against the Catholic Church, it should be removed. To state like the subtitle claimed that it was a Catholic disagreeing with the Church is OR which is not according with Wikipedia policies[4].82.154.85.23 (talk) 22:49, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it has such evidence. The image was taken on the day of a visit by the pope to Madrid.

Stop trying to protect the Catholic Church from protest. They are big enough to take it. Wikipedia's job does not include protecting religions from taking offense.

Also, this article is protected because it is about abortion. All editors are limited to one reversion per 24 hours. You have removed the image two times on the same day. Binksternet (talk) 23:19, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

82, how can you possibly claim that a protest in opposition to a Christian leader's position on abortion has nothing to do with Christianity and abortion? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 03:45, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

It's a rather kytschy picture. There aren't better ones for the article? I don't see what relevance that picture has.85.241.206.215 (talk) 21:24, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

The "Pro-Life" picture is a distance shot of what may (or may not) be an abortion protest. The "Pro-Choice" picture is a up-close shot with a very clear message. The two together do not represent anything resembling Neutral Point of View. One of the pictures should be changed to make the page more balanced.Mediatech492 (talk) 03:02, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm not a fan of the pro-choice illustration because it actually works against the impression that Christians hold a diversity of views on abortion - although statistically the protester is probably Christian, we don't know that. It'd be better to get a picture from a pro-choice Christian group or protest. The anti-abortion protest image can be cropped (it's hi-def enough to do so), which would solve your problem. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 04:03, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I find both pictures unacceptable for the lead paragraph. The first is a picture of a "Christian" anti-abortion protest with three or four people. Can we all say POV. Is there not a picture available that would demonstrate that when Christians protest it is not an extreme minority that are concerned. This seems very heavy handed editing; I wonder who added that picture and what their agenda might be?

The second picture is a good one, but why in the lead? Further, stating as someonoccurredbove that it occured when the pope visited and therefore it is a Christian wearing the mitre??? How is that known? A protest is a protest and attracts all kinds of people. Was this a faithful Catholic? Does she continue to attend Mass? When was the last time she attended? Dollars to donuts that individual, if she is a Catholic, hasn't set foot in a Catholic church in years if not decades.

These points I am making do not take a rocket scientist to develop. They are fundamental and it is strange that anyone tries to be so obvious with pushing their agenda. Wikipedia is supposed to be a neutral agent in reporting facts. Leave agendas for other media like personal blogs. -^StormRider 08:10, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't matter whether the protester is Christian or not, so your whining and speculation on her faith are fairly irrelevant; even if she is not Christian, the image relates to Christianity and abortion because it is a protest of a Christian denomination's position on and actions relating to abortion. However, as I said above, I think it would be better to find an image from one of the various pro-choice Christian groups, as more nearly the equivalent of the other image. I'm assuming the other image was chosen because it can be identified as Christian (40 Days for Life is a Christian organization), whereas other larger protests might not be verifiably so. If you think there is a problem with the image, you could find a better one, instead of ranting pointlessly about how everyone has a secret agenda. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 09:08, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I changed the first image to a better image. It is an image with obviously Catholic protesters at the 2009 March for Life.Marauder40 (talk) 12:08, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Looks good to me. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:05, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Rosecelese, I encourage you to focus solely on the discussion and not other eidtors. Wikipedia directs all editors to WP:AGF assume good faith of other editors. Accusing editors of "whining" is not helpful to civil discourse. This policy is particularly important on controversial topics such as this one. However, should you seek to continue in this behavior, you will find yourself prevented from contributing futher. Enough said.

The new picture does seem a much more reasonable picture. Thank you for posting it. -^StormRider 08:16, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Anglican Communion

I would like to remember to people that want to help improve the article to please try to be neutral as possible and not be influenced by their own personal bias. The Anglican Communion is a union of Churches and we can't claim their general views on controversial topics without reliable sources. However it is true that the mainstream Church of England has stated several times that it is pro-life.85.241.229.194 (talk) 15:37, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

It is true that a group affiliated with the Anglican Diocese of Melbourne supported decriminalization of abortion, but it was afterwards strongly opposed by other Anglicans in the Diocese, like it is stated there: "The submission was strongly opposed and a petition containing 600 protest signatures was delivered in March. Shortly after this, an extensive critical response to the submission was prepared by the Melbourne Anglican Study Group." Sorry but how can we try to be neutral about a very controversial topic if we silence one of the sides of the question? I think if some users aren't able to make constructive edits shouldn't be here.85.241.229.194 (talk) 15:53, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Waaah, silencing. The "Melbourne Anglican Study Group" doesn't appear to exist and appears to have been someone's blog, with no RS coverage, back when it existed. Wikipedia does not exist to promote anyone's views, even for the sake of "balance." The sentence you removed about the Anglican Communion is what's called a "topic sentence," which introduces the content to follow. Now run along and whine somewhere else, where you aren't bothering people who actually care about Wikipedia policies such as WP:RS and WP:NPOV. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:56, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

You already been warned before about your lack of manners. It was a Australian user [[5]], who added these references and he seemed to know what he was talking about, because he is a priest. I don't need lessons about Wikipedia policies, fortunately. About "promoting anyone's views", I think we all can see who is doing that.85.241.229.194 (talk) 00:58, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

That's nice. The appropriateness of an edit isn't dependent on who made it - even if the user is (gasp!) A PRIEST - and that edit was inappropriate. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 02:16, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Excuse me but you don't have place in Wikipedia. You claim to follow Wikipedia policies and then make totally unsourced claims that "Positions taken by Anglicans across the world are divergent and often nuanced." How can someone make such claims without a reliable source? There are two stances about abortion, pro-life and pro-choice, and from everything I have searched, the American Episcopal Church is the only who is openly pro-choice. You deleted good faith edits about the Anglican Church of Canada, who were in fact sourced. The user I mentioned is from Australia and certainly knows better the Anglican Church of Australia then most editors and he is being editing articles in Wikipedia, mostly about religion and Anglicanism, in a long time. He did provided a link about what is written about the Anglican Diocese of Melbourne, but it is now a dead link. I will ask him if he can provide new sources about it. Any person in "good faith" can be a editor in Wikipedia, even a Anglican priest or a atheist activist. It's simply pathetic to try to pretend to follow Wikipedia policies and then doing absolutely the opposite.82.154.83.73 (talk) 23:18, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

I can repeat what another user wrote:

"Rosecelese, I encourage you to focus solely on the discussion and not other eidtors. Wikipedia directs all editors to WP:AGF assume good faith of other editors. Accusing editors of "whining" is not helpful to civil discourse. This policy is particularly important on controversial topics such as this one. However, should you seek to continue in this behavior, you will find yourself prevented from contributing futher. Enough said."

82.154.83.73 (talk) 23:18, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Ah, I understand it now. You just didn't bother to read the article, which explains that some anti-abortion Anglican churches recognize that abortion can be the best alternative in certain circumstances and that some pro-choice Anglican churches believe that it shouldn't be the first option. Come back when you've read the material (and WP:RS). –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 23:25, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

What are you on about? The only openly pro-choice Anglican church is the American Episcopal Church, who is facing a possible exclusion from the Anglican Communion. You seem to have a serious problem.82.154.83.73 (talk) 23:36, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

I came here after seeing the issue on WP:NPOVN. Roscelese is absolutely right on both counts. We cannot include claims that are not covered by reliable sources (the 600 person petition thing); and, the "divergent and nuanced" is nothing other than a summary of what the rest of the article, which is supported by RS.

Due to the fact that the changes are being made by either a dynamic IP or multiple people on different IPs, and per Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abortion, I am placing this article under semi-protection for a period of 3 years. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:17, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for locking the article. Much appreciated! Binksternet (talk) 00:24, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

People in here seem to have a incomprehension of what is the Anglican Communion. It is a entity with 40 church members. This article focus only in three church members. Can a reliable source about the American Episcopal Church be used to generalize about all the church members? First, I don't think all the unity of the church members have an official document stating what is their common stance on abortion. Second, from everything I have searched almost all the church members are in fact, in a way or another, pro-life. I would have to do a extensive search but I am sure that all the churches that have been supportive of the recently created Anglican Church in North America, like the ones from Nigeria, Uganda, Sudan, Southern Cone and many others, have pro-life stances. May I ask to the previous user if he thinks that we can have a statement like that about the Anglican Communion general stance on abortion without a reliable source? Unless if we want to generalize with the American Episcopal Church who tends to openly disagree with the mainstream Church of England and other church members in several issues. I really think unless we have a Reliable Source that make us know what are, in general, the stances of the 40 church members, it is Original Research to claim such thing. It isn't too subjective after all yo say their stances are "divergent and nuanced"? I also could have written that "in general church members of the Anglican Communion tend to be pro-life, being the main exception the Episcopal Church of the United States", but I would need to rely in a RS to state that and I still don't have it. In the name of neutrality it wouldn't be more accurate to delete the introductory paragraph, until we have a better source?82.154.87.117 (talk) 19:19, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Eastern Orthodox Church

While only summarizing more basic statements in the Russian Orthodox Church's document The Basis of the Social Concept on the Church's attitude to abortion, our article gives much greater prominence to another statement by quoting it in full out of context. A careless reader might even interpret that quotation as contradicting the more basic statements of the Church's belief, and yet it does not contradict them. By taking it out of context, it is made to appear to ignore the Church's teaching that deliberate abortion is a grave sin and equivalent to murder, that even a woman who aborts because of a direct threat to her life commits a sin and must get it absolved in the sacrament of confession (in Greek terminology, the mystery of metanoia) and then perform a penance (which in the practice of the Eastern Orthodox Church involves abstension from the Eucharist for a period indicated by her confessor), and that only after that is she admitted to Eucharistic communion. While this is indeed indicated in the final phrase beginning with "provided that she ...", a reader may instead take away the impression that in such circumstances the woman is admitted to Eucharistic communion with no provisos whatever of any importance. The document actually states:

Since the ancient time the Church has viewed deliberate abortion as a grave sin. The canons equate abortion with murder. This assessment is based on the conviction that the conception of a human being is a gift of God. Therefore, from the moment of conception any encroachment on the life of a future human being is criminal.

Under no circumstances the Orthodox Church can bless abortion. Without rejecting the women who had an abortion, the Church calls upon them to repent and to overcome the destructive consequences of the sin through prayer and penance followed by participation in the salvific Sacraments.

Responsibility for the sin of the murder of the unborn child should be borne, along with the mother, by the father if he gave his consent to the abortion. If a wife had an abortion without the consent of her husband, it may be grounds for divorce (see X. 3). Sin also lies with the doctor who performed the abortion. The Church calls upon the state to recognise the right of medics to refuse to procure abortion for the reasons of conscience.

All these statements, with the exception of that about grounds for divorce, are in perfect agreement with the position that the Roman Catholic Church takes regarding deliberate abortion. But by that selective highlighting the article gives the impression of a conflict of views.

The original Russian (но это общение обусловливается исполнением ею личного покаянного молитвенного правила) and the official Greek translation ("όμως αυτή η κοινωνία προϋποθέτει την άσκηση από αυτή του προσωπικού επιτιμίου της προσευχής) make clearer than the English translation that even for a woman who aborts in those circumstances Eucharistic communion (the Greek translation omits the perhaps misleading "with the church") is conditional on doing penance. Instead of the simple "provided that ...", they say: "but this communion is conditional on (Greek, "presupposes") ..."

In addition, the article presents a false interpretation even of the words it quotes, saying they mean that the woman "is not to be excommunicated from the church because of this sin". The quotation says "excluded from the Eucharistic communion with the church", but exclusion from Eucharistic communion does not have to be the same as excommunication - even the title of the Wikipedia article "Catholic politicians, abortion and communion or excommunication" indicates that. What the Russian Orthodox Church says in this respect about women who have aborted because of direct danger to their lives, it actually says also of women who have done so in other circumstances. They too are not to be excluded from Eucharistic communion, once they have repented, confessed and done penance (presumably a heavier penance): "The Church calls upon them to repent and to overcome the destructive consequences of the sin through prayer and penance followed by participation in the salvific Sacraments". Esoglou (talk) 09:02, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

American Episcopal Church Stance

There has been lot of speculation about the American Episcopal Church stance on abortion, so I copied this from a RS: "The Episcopal Church was once pro-life: "as late as 1958 held a strong pro-life position, stating, "Abortion and infanticide are to be condemned." In 1967, the 62nd General Convention of the Episcopal Church supported abortion law "reform," to permit the "termination of pregnancy" for reasons of life, rape, incest, fetal deformity, or physical or mental health of the mother. In 1982, the 66th General Convention condemned the use of abortion as a means of gender selection and non-serious abnormalities." Unlike the rest of the Anglican Communion their official stance took a different path afterwards: "By 1988, the 69th General Convention had developed a position that stated, "All human life is sacred. Hence it is sacred from its inception until death." The statement goes on to call for church programs to assist women with problem pregnancies and to emphasize the seriousness of the abortion decision. In 1994, the 71st General Convention expressed "unequivocal opposition to any ... action ... that [would] abridge the right of a woman to reach an informed decision about the termination of her pregnancy, or that would limit the access of a woman to a safe means of acting upon her decision." In 1997, at the 72nd General Convention, the delegates approved a resolution that did not condemn partial-birth abortions but expressed grave concerns about the procedure, "except in extreme situtions."" [6] So they were once pro-life, they aknowledge the value of human life since conception but also the right to abortion, they also expressed their support for partial-birth abortion in 1997, for extreme cases. This can be used for those who want to expand the section related to the ECUSA stance on the matter.82.154.87.117 (talk) 20:01, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

If you can find a reliable source for these statements, I'm sure they would make an interesting addition to the article. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:19, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

RFC regarding proposed title change of History of early Christian thought on abortion

There is a proposal to change the title of History of early Christian thought on abortion to Talk:History of early Christian thought on abortion. Please express your opinion on this proposal at Talk:History of early Christian thought on abortion. --Pseudo-Richard (talk) 16:29, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

NPOV

This section is sorely lacking a neutral point of view, for example: Catholic Church https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Christianity_and_abortion&action=submit#Catholic_Church "...Since the first century, the Church has affirmed that every procured abortion is a moral evil, a teaching that the Catechism of the Catholic Church declares "has not changed and remains unchangeable".

run counter to this statement tucked in neatly toward the very end of the article:

Later Christian thought on abortion https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Christianity_and_abortion&action=submit#Later_Christian_thought_on_abortion St. Thomas Aquinas, Pope Innocent III, and Pope Gregory XIV also believed that a fetus does not have a soul until "quickening," or when the fetus begins to kick and move, and therefore early abortion was not murder, though later abortion was.[17][100]

Pope Innocent III was arguably the most powerful temporal leader, not only of the Papal States that he controoled, but of any country in the Western World during the High Middle Ages, and his quickening test remained as a standard within the United States until the 1850s: "Pope Innocent III (1161-1216) decreed that a monk who had arranged for his lover to have an abortion was not guilty of murder if the fetus was not "animated" at the time and that the soul enters the body of the fetus at the time of "quickening" - when the woman first feels movement of the fetus."Bee Cliff River Slob (talk) 19:58, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Murder is not the only moral evil, so would you please explain the contradiction that you see and that I, perhaps because it is late in the day here, do not see. Esoglou (talk) 20:10, 5 May 2014 (UTC)