Talk:Christ Church, Oxford/Archive 1

Archive 1

Matriculation

The article states: "The college has admitted women as junior members since 1978, with the first female undergraduates matriculating in 1980.[3]"

It sounds as though the author does not know that (in Oxford at least) matriculate does not mean graduate. It refers to the year an undergraduate begins her studies, so the first women, presumably, matriculated in 1978. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.162.21.205 (talk) 20:48, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Latin Grace

Anyone know the translation of the Latin grace given here? Snowboardpunk

I've posted a comment here on the talk page for Wikipedia:Translation into English to see how to get a translation from Latin done. They seem to focus on modern languages over there, so that may or may not be the right place to look. -- Vary | Talk 22:06, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Roughly translated, it means "We miserable and unworthy men, for the victuals which for our bodily sustenance are graciously given; to thee Almighty God, heavenly Father, we give reverent thanks, entreating that they may be soberly, modestly and gratefully enjoyed. (Through Jesus Christ Our Lord, Amen) Wherefore we also ask that the food of angels, the true Bread of Heaven, the eternal Word of God, Our Lord Jesus Christ, may be imparted to us, that by it our minds may be fed, and that by His Body and His Blood they may be nurtured, nourished, and strengthened. Amen Andrew Yong 23:19, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

The college graces of Oxford and Cambridge has a proper translation. I transcribed the first part (which is said every night) from it ages ago, viz: "We unhappy and unworthy men do give thee most reverent thanks, almighty God, our heavenly Father, for the victuals which thou hast bestowed on us for the sustenance of the body, at the same time beseeching thee that we may use them soberly, modestly and gratefully. Through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Amen." If I remember I'll get the rest next time I stumble across the book. Ptomng 21:59, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

It seems to be on permananent display at the top of the stairs leading from the Theology to the Philosophy sections in Blackwells (at least, it was still there the last time I looked). Will it not be copyrighted, though? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:02, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

the grace itself is certainly not copyrighted. are translations of non-copyrighted works protected by copyright? 08:25, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes indeed (speaking as an occasional translator, and as one whose work has been translated). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:51, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I have added a translation of the grace. I have tried to strike a compromise between a translation that is sufficiently literal to enable a person with knowledge of Latin to construe the original, yet not so literal as to be unreadable.

Christ Church is not a cathedral

Seems to me that this article starts incorrectly. Ch.Ch. is different from other Oxford colleges in being a religious foundation, and unique in having Oxford Cathedral doubling as the college chapel, but it is not in itself a cathedral. Any opinions?Sjaycee 18:18, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I think what really needs to happen is someone to write an article at Oxford Cathedral instead of it being a redirect here. For reference, the other UK cathedrals are listed the Category:Cathedrals in the United Kingdom (for anyone who wants to get started ;) ) I'll see what I can pick up when I'm next about the house. --Alf ^melmac 22:43, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

It depends what you mean by the "college". If you mean the buildings, then admittedly the college buildings are more than just the cathedral. But this would apply to any cathedral, which probably has outbuildings such as a chapter house, deanery, cathedral school, etc. However, the college and the cathedral are the same institution, the "Dean, Chapter and Students of the Cathedral Church of Christ in Oxford of the Foundation of King Henry VIII", commonly called Christ Church. The statutes of Christ Church prescribe which matters are to be governed by the Dean, Chapter and Students (i.e. Fellows), and which matters are to be governed by the Dean and Chapter alone. The former could be considered "college" matters and the latter "cathedral" matters, but it is the Dean, Chapter and Students who decide the budgets for both items. Andrew Yong 15:22, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

As a dual foundation, Christ Church is simultaneously college and cathedral. I think it's important to remember that the foundation is a corporate entity that owns and occupies structures; the structures are not themselves the foundation. Then it's easierl to understand that the college chapel doubles as the cathedral church. Even in other English dioceses, the cathedral church should not be confused with the cathedral foundation. At Christ Church, there is often a natural topographical and administrative break between the two functions, but at its core (i.e. in terms of its foundation) the two are inseperable. While I think a seperate article on oxford cathedral (on the church itself) would be helpful, I would object to its implying that the church is somehow independent of the college aspects of Christ Church. 129.67.121.11 08:27, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Prime ministers

the statement re. no. of prime ministers produced by oxbridge colleges is untrue and should be removed. Trinity Cambridge has 6; St. John's Cambridge 4, Balliol, Oxford 3, Trinity Oxford 2 etc.;—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.224.166.252 (talk • contribs) .

Yes - some retard said ChCh had produced more PMs than the whole of Cambridge (which is not true, Cambridge has produced 15 compared to ChCh's 13). This is the problem with Wiki: retarded f**kwits are allowed to broadcast mistruths.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.43.70.84 (talk • contribs) .

Was Liverpool at Christ Church? His article and the text here say so, but he's also listed in Category:Alumni of Christ's College, Cambridge and List of University of Cambridge members#Prime Ministers (Great Britain). And looking at all the articles on individual PMs the whole "Christ Church has two less PMs than the whole of Cambridge" requires Liverpool to be a Cambridge man (or Devonshire and Pelham to have been and they're not listed on either the Cambridge list or their own pages). Timrollpickering 03:30, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

According to the ODNB, Liverpool was indeed at Christ Church, Oxford - see http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/14740?docPos=5 Hackloon 16:13, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Einstein

How long was Einstein actually at ChCh? I thought he only stayed there for a couple of nights. Can ChCh really count him as a member? I guess it basically comes down to: did he sign the books of the House? Do we have proof?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.67.94.230 (talk • contribs) .

There is no mention of his time at Oxford in the current Wikipedia entry for Einstein. I shall remove the reference until such time as someone responds to the above question.JPF 15:37, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

See [1]. It states that Einstein was elected by the Governing Body to a research studentship for five years from 1931, with an annual stipend of £400. He spent about a month a year between 1931 and 1933 in residence, but after 1933 could no longer take up residence and asked that his stipend be used for some other worthy cause. Clearly if he was a research student he would have been part of the Foundation of the college, and not even just a mere member on the books. Andrew Yong 11:49, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

If you go into the GCR there is an Einstein souvenir.

His face is on one of the windows in Hall, above the northern fireplace. At least, I think that was him... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.120.61 (talk) 23:54, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

A fairly full account of Einsteins relationship with ChCh can be found at [2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.162.21.205 (talk) 21:04, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Toffs

Hmm, not sure about the 'modern college' thing. I heard some undergrads talking about a party the other day where they were all snorting champagne and caviar with the college hunting society or something. Also the fellows still pass the snuff in the SCR after dinner. And there is at least one titled aristocrat there at present.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 163.1.237.90 (talk • contribs) .

Is there anything wrong with people consuming champagne and caviar if they want to afford it? The statistics are clear: Christ Church is no more public (i.e. private) school-dominated than any other Oxford college, as was pointed out to the student press by the JCR president in Michaelmas 2005. The fact that titled aristocrats are members of the house says just about as much as the fact that other members formerly went to inner-city comprehensives. Admission to Oxford is probably as fair as any system could be. The fact that privately educated students have a higher likelihood of succeeding at interviews underlines the problems of secondary state education, but not a problem at Christ Church or Oxford Uni in general. --Geetee 15:59, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

More on Toffs

It was still fairly aristocratic when I was there in the mid 70s. The Duke of Northumberland and a lot of Etonions were there. It is also the only Oxford college with a beagle pack (I wonder what they do now hunting is banned in the UK?). Jschlesinger 12:01, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

The beagle pack is still going, but is no longer connected with the College, apart from the name. Andrew Yong 15:42, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

The fact that approximately 50 percent of Oxford undergraduates come from state schools or partially government aided schools is anything but an indicator of equality. Private schools in Britain only account for about 20 percent of the education sector. To this one might argue that private school pupils are simply better prepared for the selection process. They certainly have the "quiet confidence" thanks to intense mock interview practice, which most state school pupils do not have. A relatively poor state school pupil who has not had access to the same quality of secondary education as a private sector pupil may of course have POTENTIAL. Unfortunately, the Oxford selection process does not really take this into account. In order to make the selection process slightly fairer though, candidates could simply be attributed an anonymous candidate number for the written exams AND oral interview. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DangerMouse007 (talk • contribs) 11:53, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

And this helps us build a better article how exactly?--Alf ^melmac 11:56, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Alf: see the comments under "Private education and Christ Church" and "Toffs". —Preceding unsigned comment added by DangerMouse007 (talk • contribs) 12:10, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

There is (in the current revision) no mention of proportions of any sort (privately educated students, tied scholarships or otherwise) are you suggesting there should be as I cannot tell what the point of your writing this here is, is it to add something that is missing or to take something out (which I'm missing...) or what?--Alf ^melmac 12:23, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Alf: I hope I have not affronted you. The juxtaposition at the beginning of the second paragraph in the current version is ambiguous and problematic. I think it advisable to simply delete it altogether to avoid problems concerning perspective: "Christ Church has traditionally been seen as the most aristocratic college in Oxford.[citation needed] However, today the proportion of undergraduates from maintained and independent schools is roughly equal, which is typical of most Oxford colleges." —Preceding unsigned comment added by DangerMouse007 (talk • contribs) 12:40, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Ah right, no afront at all, I just couldn't see, without you pointing, what result you are suggesting. Yes I agree, it is an unsubstantiated subjective opinion, the latter part of which could apply to any college in any given year, depending on the vagaries of that year. I have removed it--Alf ^melmac 12:46, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

The House

"commonly known as the House" seems to stretch it a bit - the college hasn't really been called that by Junior Members for at least a decade - except during Eights week.

I think any undergrads at Christ Church would know it as 'the house', although it may not be in common usage. It certainly comes up in toasts... Reevey

I've been in Oxford since 1983, as a student and lecturer (including a year as lecturer at Ch.Ch.), and I can count the times that anyone has referred to "the House" on the fingers on one hand. If you limit it to serious, non-tongue-in-cheek references, it drops to zero. That it occurs in toasts is surely no more relevant than that it occurs in "comic" columns in Cherwell. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:06, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I've just received a letter from the new editor of the Annual Report, in which he refers the "the House", and yesterday at lunch at Teddy Hall an (aged) emeritus Fellow referred to the House. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:03, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

it's certainly anecdotal (like the rest of these comments), but when one tries to get through tom gate, the custodians ask, "are you a member of the house?" and the prayers at evensong normally include one for "this house". i'd say, tongue in cheek or not, christ church is still referred to as the house several dozen times every day. 80.41.93.132 08:12, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

It certainly used on the river and in the numerous sports Christ Church plays. "Come on House" is quite common to hear during football, rugby or cricket. I would say it's a fairly common usage and in non of these instances is it really used tongue-in-cheek.

As a current junior member of Christ Church, I can tell you that "the House" is in quite common usage. Above comments would suggest that it went into abeyance at some point over the last couple of decades but, if that is the case, then it has certainly made a comeback. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.3.172.16 (talk) 23:42, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

College Arms

Shouldn't there be something about the college arms, and Wolsey's crest on the site? Most other Oxbridge colleges on wikipedia have their college crest.

The image of the arms needs to be improved - image should be smaller and centralised and the cardinal's hat has to be red. Andrew Yong 16:06, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Done (September 2006).Septuagent (talk) 06:01, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Alumni

As there are so many, shouldn't these be divided up to make it easier to read, ie "Writers"; "Statesmen"; "Philosophers"; etc - with perhaps a short description after each name? (ie, "W H Auden, poet", etc.)

Noble effort, Wikiman!

Re recent changes to the alumni list, does anyone really think that the names below are worth including as distinguished Other alumni:

Jonathan Shin, Prince Shin de Pyeongsan (1975 - ), member of the Pyeongsan Shin clan  
 + * Arthur Wellesley, Earl of Mornington (1978 - ), heir to the Duke of Wellington 
 + * Jonny Searle MBE (1969 - ), Gold Medallist, Coxed Pair, 1992 Summer Olympics 
 + * Shahid Javed Burki (1938 - ), economist and Vice-President of the World Bank  

My view is that these might perhaps make the grade at a lesser college but in the context of Christ Church their achievements are so piffling (in one case to be the son of a duke, in another the son of a prince, the others a minor sportsman and bureaucrat respectively) as to be scrcely worth mentioning. The House (of which I was a member) has produced thousands more notable names than these.

Comments welcome.

Londoner1961 17:30, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Jonny Searle? A "minor sportsman"? I think not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.3.172.16 (talk) 23:44, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

People

Just a thought, Dr. Daniel Dennett author of 'Breaking the Spell' studied at Christ Church in 1965 - can he be added to the philosophy list in the 'people' section? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Dennett . —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jackdelyelis (talk • contribs) 16:13, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Admissions (how applicants are selected)

My reading of University of Oxford suggests that the academic programs and degrees are awarded by Oxford, but that students apply to an individual college for admission. Is there a summary of the differences in criterion between Oxford's other colleges and Christ Church? rhyre (talk) 16:46, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

As I understand it the admissions process is largely identical between colleges. Basically an interview, possibly a written test, and depending on the course a subsequent interview with the university department. I haven't heard of any college doing anything special admissions wise, never mind Christ Church. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.144.196 (talk) 20:09, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Private education and Christ Church

The comment about proportion of privately educated students and tied scholarships is untrue. Christ Church does NOT have significantly more privately educated students than other Oxbridge colleges; it does not take a disproportionate number of people from 'posh' schools and it is not filled with members of the aristocracy any longer. This article does not state all of this but insinuates it, and appears to be thinking of the pre-war college (well ok, later as well, but it is not like this any more! Overcome your outdated prejudices, it is a modern college now and is not full of 'toffs'!—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 163.1.237.90 (talk • contribs) .

It does have both a higher proportion of privately educated students than most other colleges of the university and takes a higher proportion from the poshest/oldest Public schools. The university's own admission statistics and my experience of the college support this. 86.130.247.24 (talk) 22:38, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Christ Church, Oxford/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Could easily become a WP:GA with more references. Casper Gutman 08:44, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 08:44, 25 March 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 14:31, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

John Locke?

Not worth mentioning on this page? One of the most prominent thinkers for western civilization? Nigel Lawson and Lewis Carroll aren't exactly in the same weight class. In my book. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Karakoima (talk • contribs) 06:40, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Seems reasonable. I suggest you be WP:BOLD and add it. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 14:51, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

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Aristocratic?

The statement that

Christ Church ... [is] traditionally considered the most aristocratic [Oxford college]

is unferenced and seems like a "point of view" (see WP:POV). The reason is that "aristocratic" in modern times may be seen as derogatory, so careful referencing should be required to justify retaining the statement. Perhaps, therefore, delete; alternatively, can someone find a reference supporting the statement, or an alternative common impression of the college? Klbrain (talk) 12:01, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

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Christopher Wren?

Surely not?

'Fraid so.

References for the architect are at Tom Tower; the key point to note is that the tower isn't in his usual style because it

ought to be Gothick to agree with the Founders worke

— Wren

Klbrain (talk) 11:42, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

References

Reproductions of Christ Church's dining hall

The article mentions that the University of Chicago and Cornell University both have reproductions of Christ Church's dining hall. Unmentioned is that King William II of the Netherlands, who was an alumnus of Christ Church College, build a copy as well, at Kneuterdijk Palace in The Hague. It still exists today. I leave it to the other contributors to decide if this should be added in the article. --OSeveno (talk) 10:55, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Looks like this has been done. Klbrain (talk) 21:45, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Resolved

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Richest College

On both the article about Christ Church and the article about St John's there is a claim that each is the richest college. I believe that St John's is the richest, however I feel someone more capable than me could research this and correct whichever article is incorrect. Adsy125 (talk) 08:31, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

@Adsy125 thanks for querying this. St John's is currently the second wealthiest college by endowment with £573.5m after Christ Church with £577.5m (see Colleges of the University of Oxford#List of colleges). I have restored the wording "one of the wealthiest colleges" in the St John's article. Figures for total assets "[do] not reflect all the assets held by the colleges as their accounts do not include the cost or value of many of their main sites or heritage assets such as works of art or libraries" (Colleges of the University of Oxford#Finances). TSventon (talk) 09:10, 30 September 2020 (UTC)