Talk:Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya

Opening heading

(Rangakuvara (talk) 02:41, 15 May 2016 (UTC)) I have read all the details of renaming the Mumbai city's most of the public places to the love and respect for the Great valiant King Shivaji maharaj in real terms. All Indians should be idebted to Shivaji maharaj for keeping at bay, the foreign forces, during his life time (19-02-1630-03-04-1680) The Britishers have made sufficient provision to display the great contributions made by several personolities. Art, Cultural, Portraits, Paintings, and the Artefacts are very nicely displayed in the museum. After the death of Tippoo sultan Britishers became very powerful. After the death of Queen Victoria, her son took the reign and he had many plans to expand the British policies in every part of india. It was during the time, of King George the Vth, India, their dominion, was reorganised in various facets. For the first time, The Delhi durbar was organised in a grand scale, and Indian princes and others were made to known that Britain is taking over the administration in the wake of new light. The Capital was shifted from Calcutta to New Delhi, although it took several years before it was actually done. Later our National struggle which was carried by the stawarts like Tilak,Gokhale, and Sir Phirojshah mehta, and later by Mahatma Gandhi and others gave unprecedented success, which was never heard of in the history of seeking Independence. (Compared to the bloodshet and the number of deaths of all the nations who fought against Britain, India's share is very minimal, and the way the drama ended is again unprecedented. The great thing is we got our country intact, unlike Africa which was framented to several countries. This is mainly due to the great leadership given by Gandhiji, who sought the help of Muslims, Dalits and many other forces. So, Shivaji maharaj's part in the premises of the Vastusangrahalay should be limited to his pavilion inside the museum. In fact Shivaji maharaj needs a seperate museum for all his great deeds in unifying the India of his times.

I've put down that the Prince of Wales at this time was Edward VII, because I know that he did visit India, and I assumed they were commemorating it after the event. However, bearing in mind the date, it might have been George V, who was actually POW at the time. Does anyone know for sure? Deb 11:59, 22 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Moved the page as the name has been officially changed by the Maharashtra Government --NRS | ^T/_M\^B 10:08, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

(Rangakuvara (talk) 01:18, 21 April 2011 (UTC)) I do know, that King Edward visited India in 1875 or so. when he was POW, during his mother Qeen Victroria's time. Later, his loyal friends and welwishers prominent among them was David Sassoon himself, installed a statue in front of David Sassoon Library, which was later acknowledged by the folks of Bombay, as KALAGHODA. That was long back. But his son, King George visited Bombay, in 1905 (then he was POW) So, the article needs correction. -Rangakuvara.

You are right. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 16:36, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

(Rangakuvara (talk) 12:12, 22 April 2011 (UTC)) Thanks. One more thing, is one statue is in front of the present Chatrapati shivaji vastusangrahalay, Fort Mumbai. Due to some repair work, visitors are not allowed to go near that. I will go one of these days, and read the inscription. Regarding the Byculla Dr. Bhaudaji Lad's Museum, and the connected Jeejamata udyan, one statue is erected on the lawns just in the entrance. There also no board or description is seen, except a bold and not so elegant board, stating "Prince of Wales,' which causes confusion; which prince of Wales ? There was no one to clarify our doubt...

Requested move: Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya → Prince of Wales Museum

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 06:43, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

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Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya → Prince of Wales Museum – There are 45 post-2000 English-language Google Book hits for "Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya", 355 for "Prince of Wales Museum." On Google News, there are 8 post-2000 results for "Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya", 38 for "Prince of Wales Museum." Google Insights shows that "Prince of Wales Museum" is vastly more common as a search term. (These results are almost all from India, so there is no question of them referring to a museum in some other country.) Britannica refers to this subject as the "Prince of Wales Museum of Western India". Kauffner (talk) 15:47, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

• Comment -- A lot of things in India got renamed about the same time, including Bombay and Madras. The question ought not to be based on ghits, but on what name English speaking Indians in Bombay (Mumbai) are actulaly using for it. The is the English WP, so that the name should include "Museum", rather than the Hindi word for a museum, but Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Museum, Mumbai, might be appropriate. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:33, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

It is never called "Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Museum". It is "Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya" [1] or "Prince of Wales Museum". Either of these names is good. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 17:45, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

People in Mumbai call it "the museum". From the results on Google Insights, it is obvious that ordinary people are not using the current long-winded title. They are looking for the "Mumbai museum". The current name is Marathi, not Hindi. So the language is also unfamiliar to most Indians. Kauffner (talk) 00:06, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

• Support It may well be that the local Government in Mumbai did rename it to Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj. reigned 1642–1680 CE, but sources in the article do not yet document the name change, and Wikipedia must be guided by WP:RS. Whatever happens unlikely that we are going to end up with an article entitled Vastu Sangrahalaya instead of Museum. Suggest moving back to the WP:RS supported known name, until a reliable WP:RS English source documents the new English name. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:45, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Opening

The name in the opening should correspond with the article title, or be a variation of it. To have a totally different name in the opening makes the reader wonder if this is the right article. Moreover, the article should not argue with itself. The title indicates that "Prince of Wales Museum" is the common name, but the opening says this is only a former name. Kauffner (talk) 00:28, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Officially "Prince of Wales Museum" is a former name, which introduced in early 2000s, has not caught on by the Western sources, Le Devoir [2] being an exception. The official English name is "Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya". See Salman Rushdie, Rudyard Kipling, Musée du Louvre for use of official name. References like [3] are not updated, evident by the use of Bombay, while Britannica's other articles call it Mumbai. [4] also acknowledges the rename. Indian media often use [5] use "Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya (formerly known as the Prince of Wales Museum)". --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 03:37, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

You are not addressing the points I made above. The opening now argues that the name of subject should be CSMVS. But we just had an RM and decided that was not the common name. Just because the museum's site says that "Prince of Wales Museum" is a former name doesn't make it so. Britannica and others are still using this name. It looks like the museum itself is currently using "Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya, formerly Prince of Wales Museum of Western India" as its long-form name. See here and here (under the heading "museum address"). I don't suggest that we use this monstrosity. My point is that the phrase "Prince of Wales Museum" still appears prominently on the museum's own literature. Kauffner (talk) 10:09, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Officially "Prince of Wales Museum of Western India" is a former name, and the new name is currently not the common name, but after 10 years, things might change. May be Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Museum may be a common name. I have swapped the names in the lead. In the infobox, we should retain "formerly Prince of Wales Museum of Western India", as official name used by the museum. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 16:23, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: clearly no consensus to move. —innotata 18:44, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

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Prince of Wales Museum → Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya – Over the last few years, the official name is being embraced. Britannica now uses the official name, so does NY Times, BBC, Lonely Planet, CNN Redtigerxyz ^Talk 06:57, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: I have concerns about using that title. For one, WP:EN prefers that the title be in English. "Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya" is most certainly not. The word museum doesn't even appear in the title (and doing something like "Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya Museum" would be redundant and unofficial). I will admit that those sources calling it by its official title adds a new dimension to the debate. I'd be curious to know if "Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya" is now used more often in English sources than the older "Prince of Wales" title. Paris1127 (talk) 11:57, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

"Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya (formerly Prince of Wales Museum of Western India)" is the official full name of the museum so I don't think Prince of Wales Museum will be completely dropped in sources. Indian sources like [6], [7] generally acknowledge the previous name. Sangrahalaya means Museum. The fact is the name is used in English sources as it is (without suffix Museum) indicates it is accepted in English. Similar case to French museums like Musée d'Art Moderne de la Ville de Paris. BBC: "Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya is Mumbai's best museum, a hodgepodge of Islamic, Hindu and British architecture with exhibits from all over India." The Guardian. Redtigerxyz ^Talk 17:24, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment in recent years the Ency. Brit., apparently as a matter of editorial policy, has taken to using local, non-English names. I no longer see it as an appropriate guide. --Bejnar (talk) 14:06, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

If a major reference doesn't use an English name, that surely indicates that general usage has shifted. Are you saying that EB should not be counted because it has a policy of revising its texts? Imc (talk) 18:57, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

No, I am saying that since Ency. Brit. no longer has a use English policy, that they are no longer an appropriate role model where our policy is to use English. --Bejnar (talk) 03:14, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

WP:EN says "The title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language". It does not say that the name shall be in English itself. And Ency. Brit is one such English language source which should not be excluded from consideration. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 15:54, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Neither 'Prince' nor 'museum' were originally English words, both being assimilated from Latin or Latin/French. The thing could be called 'Aetheling of Wales house of old things' in authentic English. Imc (talk) 16:43, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

The example submitted by Imc is inapposite as there are no reliable sources that use it. --Bejnar (talk) 13:59, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

You're of course avoiding the point of my comment. Imc (talk) 07:02, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - If general usage has changed then it ought to be renamed, but does everyone really say 'Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj' instead of just 'Shivaji' or similar? Imc (talk) 18:57, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

[8][9]2014 No one likes a long name, so you mention the official name and then use CSMVS. In fact in Mumbai, the official museum name is hardly used in common parlance; even when it was Prince of Wales Museum of Western India. It is simply called the "Museum" (since time immemorial), as it is Mumbai's best-known museum.Redtigerxyz ^Talk 19:38, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support a move. The museum itself used the name. The Wikipedia infobox uses छत्रपती शिवाजी महाराज वस्तुसंग्रहालय which is the same as the Hindu article title but which Google translates as "Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Museum". However, there is no English alternative http://www.csmvs.in/ the current Wikipedia title is old. Gregkaye ✍♪ 19:15, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. Here's the problem. Almost every source I looked at had multiple names, most times "Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya" and "Prince of Wales Museum" were both used in the same sources. Trouble is those aren't the only names used in English. We have Chhatrapati Shivaji Museum (Which imho is the best choice), we have The Bombay Museum, locals calling it the Mumbai Museum, and many travel guides still use Prince of Wales Museum such as Expedia because it's what most folks recognize in English. I think "museum" should be part of the common name article title which is why, when we have many choices, Chhatrapati Shivaji Museum seems like a good compromise for the title. Then you can put the "official full name" and "former name" afterwards in the lead. No humans actually seem to call it Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya except in official capacity, and I doubt that will ever be the common name for the place. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:54, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

IMO, the common name in written sources should be used. If spoken name in Mumbai is a parameter for the common name, we should probably rename as "Museum (Mumbai)" or "Mumbai Museum".--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 07:06, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose After reading through this, I have to oppose renaming the page. While use of the extremely long name may be gaining, it still does not meet one of the English Wikipedia's key tenets about titles: use English. Renaming the article as "Chhatrapati Shivaji Museum" may seem like a compromise, but if it's neither the official name nor one that's used in common parlance then it seems like Wikipedia is advocating for this name. And naming the page "Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya Museum" would be redundant. I also agree with Fyunck that "Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya" will likely not be the common English name. The museum continued to use the name "Prince of Wales Museum" for decades after the British left Bombay (as it was known at the time), and for lack of a better alternative it's the name that English Wikipedia should use for the time being. Paris1127 (talk) 22:19, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

One thing. I wouldn't have suggested that it could be renamed "Chhatrapati Shivaji Museum" if I didn't notice that many sources use that phrasing. I know we can't make things up. So we have places like Hindustan Times, the Times of India, travel blogs, tourism websites, Reuters India, Hindu websites, etc... Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:09, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Literature review of English RS: WP:ENGLISH says: "The title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language, as you would find it in reliable sources (for example other encyclopedias and reference works, scholarly journals and major news sources).", not that the name should have an English word in it.

• Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya
  • Makemytrip [10] (current)
  • The Guardian (2012, current travel guide on Mumbai)
  • CNN (travel guide)
  • BBC) (2011, travel guide)
  • Lonely Planet (current)
  • Britannica (current)
  • NY Times
  • (The Times Group) - No. 1 paper in India
    • Times of India TOI (2014) 2014, 2013, 2014, 2013, 2013
    • [11] Mumbai Mirror (2013)
  • (HT Media) - No. 2 paper in India
    • Hindustan Times[12] (2012), [13] (2012), [14] (2012), [15] (2013) (sometimes uses Chhatrapati Shivaji Museum in headlines Hindustan Times (2012); tag name and usage in text is "Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya")
    • [16] Mint_(newspaper) (2014)
  • Time Out (magazine) [17]
  • About.com (travel guide)
  • [18] Google Maps results for "Shivaji Museum"
• [19] Indian Express (2013), added as ref in article by User:Trinidade. 8 results (2011-2014). Tag name is "Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya"
• Chhatrapati Shivaji Museum
  • Rough Guides (current)
  • Chhatrapati Shivaji or Prince of Wales Museum LA Times, travel guide
  • Reuters (2008) "Victoria Terminus, Mumbai's main station, is now Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus. The Prince of Wales Museum has become the Chhatrapati Shivaji Museum." [20]
  • Hindu Janajagruti Samiti (2010) [21] (This site does reflect views of all Hindus as stated as all. Nor is it a RS. Redtigerxyz ^Talk 06:04, 7 September 2014 (UTC))
• Prince of Wales Museum
  • Expedia
  • [22] Fodors
• Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Museum
  • Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Museum Kayak.com

-- Updating. Redtigerxyz ^Talk 06:04, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I sure hope that list isn't supposed to be concise, because if it's supposed to show current usage it's wrong. Times of India and Hindustan Times also use CHHATRAPATI SHIVAJI MUSEUM, as I mentioned above. So does Reuters and Hindojagruti. Los Angeles Times uses simply Chhatrapati Shivaji or Prince of Wales Museum. Kayak.com is completely different in using Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Museum. So the actual common English usage is all over the map, with the name changing even within sources. I would oppose the move simply on that basis but as I said above, using "Chhatrapati Shivaji Museum" is a compromise that can be sourced (and not just once in Rough Guides). Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:47, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Times of India does not use the museum (see search results, none have the term). Hindustan Times (2012) uses the term only in the headline, then uses "Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya"; also the tag name is "Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya". Travel blogs by non-RS can not be used as a meter for finding Common name. Redtigerxyz ^Talk 06:04, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

ToI doesn't use the term museum?. Very strange then that I take a quick look through google and find this one and this one and this one in a matter of seconds. Is all that list of yours this faulty? As for only in headlines... so what? As for travel blogs... this isn't just official article sourcing. We are trying to do our best to figure out what people actually call the place. It looks like it's all over the map and your list is now high suspect in it's quality. I think that we don't have enough common name info to change this article title but that Chhatrapati Shivaji Museum is as good as anything else. It may even be the actual most common name Indian street vendors and plumbers and doctors and cricket players use. We just don't know all the facts. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:34, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Check the dates for TOI (2002 and 2011) and does not reflect current usage (2013, 2014; added more links; not surprisingly all articles which use "Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya" are post-2011; the usage probably changed in 2012 or 2013). Headlines will always use the shorter names. Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya is long name, does not fit in small places. Let's be realistic. It is never used in the text part in any HT article. We need to find common usage in reliable sources, not the "actual most common name" used in common parlance (spoken tongue), which is "Museum" or "Mumbai museum". Redtigerxyz ^Talk 07:58, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

More parameters? Now I have to check dates and can't use headlines? My point is that the common English name is in serious doubt. Oh and here's a 2013 hindustan times article with your listed last variation right in the text... Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Museum. And the same from the Live Mint and Wall Street Journal, and the 2013 New Zealand Herald, etc... It seems like every time I search new versions of the museum name appear. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:38, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. The proposed form was not a common usage as recently as 2008, according to this ngram. Nor was it a common search term during the last twelve months. I can only hope that this institution, which has been subject to so much nomenclature abuse, will one day get a name that isn't about political point scoring -- perhaps something along the lines of "Mumbai Museum." Update: I think this quote from Fodor's sums it up: "The museum was renamed Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya, but don't ask for directions to this -- no one uses that name." La crème de la crème (talk) 00:16, 8 September 2014 (UTC) Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Kauffner

That quotation really does sum it up... What name does Fodor's use instead? Their website uses the original Prince of Wales name. Paris1127 (talk) 01:01, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

The book uses "Prince of Wales Museum" as well.[23] It was published in 2013, so it's both authoritative and up to date. La crème de la crème (talk) 06:46, 8 September 2014 (UTC) Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Kauffner

• Support. Since there is evidence of it both being the official name and of considerable current use (or at least of the Chhattrapati Shivaji Maharaj bit). The use of the term 'museum' is to be expected since museum continues to be the common English word but that does not prevent the formal name being Sangrahalaya. Imc (talk) 16:43, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per "The museum was renamed Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya, but don't ask for directions to this -- no one uses that name." --SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:54, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 5 February 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. We have consensus that the proposed title is now the common name in English-language sources. Cúchullain ^t/c 16:15, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

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Prince of Wales Museum → Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya – Par the below commentary left on my talk page:

Note that i am myself neutral in regards to this move request, i am merely creating this discussion for another user. Relisted. Number 57 13:09, 13 February 2015 (UTC) Excirial ^{(Contact me,Contribs)} 19:19, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Hello. You have recently revert a change that I have made. The change is with the title of the page Prince of wales museum, The official name of the museum is Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya. As changed by the government, refer http://www.thehindu.com/2000/11/16/stories/0216000q.htm and the official website www.csmvs.in. My argument for your assistance is this would be, when you search for Bombay on wikipedia a user is direct to the page Mumbai. Because the name of the city was officially changed by the government. However, the page does mention that the city was previous called Bombay. Like we have mentioned that Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya was formerly known as Price of Wales Museum of Western India. More over the page title itself is wrong. The museum was never known as Price of Wales museum but Prince of Wales Museum of Western India. Also, if the argument few other users who have changed the title is that the page title should be in English. Then the page for Arc_de_Triomphe should be renamed Arc of Triumph. Allanoscar (talk) 19:05, 5 February 2015 (UTC)Allan Oscar

• Comment: my common sense says that it would be strange to have such a long non-English title. But I suppose that the policies are what count. —George8211 / T 20:08, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

• Comment:George8211: True that it would be strange to have a long non-english title. But simply put the museums name is a non-english name. That was perhaps the whole point of the government changing the official name. To break away from British names. Did common sense prevail while changing the name of the museum-well lets not get that argument started. We at the museum continue to use in brackets (Formerly known as Price of wales museum of western India) as in popular culture we cannot break away from it. Having the Wikipedia page with a title that is not the official or popular use (popular use being CSMVS) grossly tampers and affects other official pages like the website, facebook, twitter.

And with regard to a long non-english name, take this for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staatliche_Kunstsammlungen_Dresden. Why not rename this page to just its English title or even more call it Dresden Museum. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Allanoscar (talk • contribs) 20:51, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

• Comment and question: Usually the standard for how something is named in English Wikipedia is how English language reliable sources refer to it. That may be different from the name the institution uses for itself. Since "Prince of Wales Museum" is currently more common in a Google search, that might be a reason for sticking with the old name, but it also might be that more up-to-date sources are using the new name and we should follow them. Also, to help make the decision, could someone provide an English translation for "Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya". SchreiberBike talk 22:37, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - As per last go around. It seems like we just did this. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:14, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
• Support - *Well the first three words refer to the revered Medieval period king. The first word Chhatrapati- From Marathi language means chatra [roof or umbrella] + pati) meaning a king or ruler — Chhatrapati indicates a person who gives shade to his followers and protects their success.

Shivaji- The name of the king (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shivaji) Maharaj means King. Vastu means objects. Sangrahalaya means a collection/museum. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Allanoscar (talk • contribs) 23:22, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:EN and Fyunck. We did just go over this, in September. Back then, I offered a compromise of Chhatrapati Shivaji Museum, but that was not used because that name has never been used. Offering "museum" in the title instead of the MVS part would at least avoid confusion with Mumbai's main airport and train station. And the Arc de Triomphe's English name is, in fact, the Arc de Triomphe. I think WP:EN puts it best: "If Torino ousts Turin, we should follow, but we should not leap to any conclusion until it does." Paris1127 (talk) 23:37, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

  Actually, that compromise title does occur occasionally...We have places like: Hindustan Times, the Times of India, travel blogs, tourism websites, Reuters India, Hindu websites, etc. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:48, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

  Interesting. How often does it appear compared to Prince of Wales Museum? By the way, the tourism website you linked is a 404. And possibly about a museum in Aurangabad. Paris1127 (talk) 23:59, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

• Support*-Since the argument last time was also about English language sources. I'm sharing few articles. Again, the correct usage is Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya and its acronym CSMVS.

− http://www.mid-day.com/articles/the-ramayana-goes-online/15148057 − http://epaper.indianexpress.com/c/4430083 − http://www.mumbaimirror.com/mumbai/others/Mumbai-for-expats/articleshow/37512339.cms − http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mumbai/Climate-control-gadgets-and-evacuation-plan-a-must-for-international-exhibitions/articleshow/28693595.cms − http://www.mumbaimirror.com/others/sunday-read/Awakening-the-deity/articleshow/45837662.cms

− Of the compromised name source you shared. The first link is a direct copy of the print edition, the very first line mentions the full name. Their space contrains are making them do this, does not make it right. Second one- Its a dead link. Apart from the title there is nothing on that page. I mean no articles related to the museum. Third one- Its one persons blog and in the blog itself if you scroll and check the image you will see the banners/artwork used in the museum. Reuters article is using it agreed, factually wrong and the last link is the most atrocious. A fundamentalist group which is opposing the artist M. F. Husain, because was Muslim and they consider him Anti-Hindu. The artist spent his last years in self exile from India because of such acts. If you read that article, its filled with spelling mistakes where they have jumbled up the museums name at multiple places. Its a petition letter and should be addressed officially right. For CSMVS they have written CSVS. Surely such inaccuracies cannot be cited as source. Allanoscar (talk) 00:15, 6 February 2015 (UTC)Allan Oscar

The Hindu source and blogs are a poor choice, I'll give you that. How is Reuters wrong? They're not using your version of the museum's name? Please remember that "correct" is in the eye of the beholder. Also, you realize that you can only "support" the move once, right? Paris1127 (talk) 01:17, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

I feel the Reuters article is wrong because even in the sentence,"The Prince of Wales Museum has become the Chhatrapati Shivaji Museum.". It should have been Prince of Wales Museum of Western India. And this is not a matter of my version and somebody else's version. I'm simply saying lets use the correct/ official name. The english speaking crowd would like to stick to Prince of Wales, the locals Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya or CSMVS. Since there are conflicting views why not stick to he official. The reason I'm following this up is that as a Official Museum representative we've received complaints that when people search for the museum on Facebook and wiki Prince of Wales Shows up. Its even more confusing on facebook as we have our official page www.facebook.com/CSMVS and then we have a wiki page which says Prince of Wales. This diverts audiences. I'm sorry this maybe a frustrating process to go over again, but look at the date of the Reuters article and the few links I have shared. I've shared local English media links. The popular term usage has changed. Allanoscar (talk) 12:47, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

You work at the museum? Is there an official English name? Your logo says "The Museum Mumbai". That could be a possibility for a rename. Googling "The Museum Mumbai" brings up your website first. That might be a compromise. I can understand wanting to remove the Prince of Wales name from the museum (although you're splitting hairs with the "of Western India"; as has been said many times, the popular/colloquial name is used instead of the official. We don't call Rhode Island the "State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations" even though that's the official name, and we don't use the very long ceremonial name of Bangkok). Since "Chhatrapati Shivaji Museum" isn't really used in English, "The Museum Mumbai" may work. Paris1127 (talk) 18:18, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I ran a comparison of the various names for the museum on Google. Here's India, and here's Maharashtra. It's not always reliable, but it is interesting. Paris1127 (talk) 18:31, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for sharing the search data Paris1127. In the previous comment you suggested The Museum Mumbai. Well to explain this, in the museum logo there is The Museum and just below the line drawing of the museum the name of the museum is also mentioned. When the name of the museum was changed by the government the branding of the museum was consequently effected. The Museum was used for a while and even the website was called The museum mumbai. However, the past few years we are working on a standardized Branding and have been using and promoting the official name to be used. The museum cannot leave behind its past and will be known by a large section of the public. Which is even more supported by the search data you shared. I have shared this information at length with museum personel's and I think I would rest my case here. Our main concern was that we have taken strongly to social media and because of the wiki page showing up on facebook page with a different name, it was and continues to split our audiences and reach. I guess there is no way out of it for us. However, thank you all for your efforts in discussing this once again. See you again if someone else brings this edit up in the future. Allanoscar (talk) 08:27, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

• Comment. Using UK Google News Prince of Wales Museum has 187 results [24] vs. Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya 224 [25]. Is this enough to usurp the current title? Zarcadia (talk) 20:41, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
• Support naming article Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya. This is the museum's name. Unfortunately it appears there is no easy English translation of the long name, but it is certainly NOT Prince of Wales Museum. The aim for any encyclopedia should be 100 percent accuracy. If you care enough to read the article about the museum, I doubt you will be put off by the long name. Wikimandia (talk) 03:42, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
• Support:

  Official guides of Mumbai of numerous sites have adopted the new name:

  • BBC (2011)
  • Lonely Planet
  • Britannica (2014)
  • World Travel guide
  • [26] The Guardian (2012)
  • [27] The Independent (Jan 2015)
  • CNN (2011)
  • Time Out (magazine) [28]

  News:

  • [29] Asia Society
  • NYTimes (2011) 2010
  • Indian Media [30] Times of India, [31] Hindustan Times, Mid Day, The Hindu, DNA, *:*:Indian Express

  • Wall Street Journal: [32] (2013)
  • The Economist: uses CSMVS after using full form

  Redtigerxyz ^Talk 12:29, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

• Support - it's not the easiest title in the world for English speakers to say, but the sources provided by Paris1127 and Redtigerxyz seem to indicate that this satisfies WP:COMMONNAME in English language sources. The oppose votes above mainly seem to be on the grounds of WP:NOTAGAIN rather than substantial policy arguments.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:04, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

The article is well-written and well-referenced. Some suggestions for improvement: Somewhere meanings of the words of the current name should be noted, vastu and sangrahalaya. Ratan tata is wrongly linked. Current business leader was born in 1937, so he could not have given his collection of artifacts in 1921. Some information on who exactly were the prominent citizens who tried to bring up this museum should be there. Some information on other museums in Mumbai and Maharashtra should be noted somewhere to show importance of this one. Some information on notables among curators should be included. How about any data on footfalls here? Notes and References section has same info, should be cleaned up. dabfixing is required. --GDibyendu (talk) 05:17, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Last edited at 16:16, 11 March 2015 (UTC). Substituted at 11:28, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Providing translation for "Vastu Sangrahalaya"

One of the commentators above mentioned that vastu sangrahalaya translates as "object collection".

When I do a web search on "sangrahalaya", I see hits like the following:

• Mani Bhavan Gandhi Sangrahalaya [33] (Gandhi Museum in a building called Mani Bhavan, according to the website)
• Indira Gandhi Rashtriya Manav Sangrahalaya (Google Translate detects rashtriya manav sangrahalaya as Hindi and gives the translation "national human museum")
• Gandhi Smarak Sangrahalaya [34] ("Gandhi Memorial Museum", again a mechanical translation)

1. I hope people can see from above how much more readable and meaningful the item is when a gloss / translation / explanation is given for the name. See also our article Staatliche Kunstsammlungen Dresden (Dresden State Art Collections).
2. Can anyone who knows Hindi or Marathi confirm that the translations for CSMVS and IGRMS are a good representation of the meaning?

Pelagic (talk) 15:15, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

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No one in English calls this museum by such a long name

Why the heck doesn't this article go by it's common name of either "Chhatrapati Shivaji museum" or "Shivaji museum?" No one calls it by it's formal name. You think we have an article under "James Earl Carter Jr.?" No, we use Jimmy Carter. Even the common name is a mouthful for English speakers but the formal name I give up on by the fifth syllable. I am shocked it is at a title that really is not used by most common sources. A source may spell it out once then use CSMVS because no one in English uses the long term. Even The Hindu News shortens it. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:07, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm sympathetic to this, but you need to read the 4 (I think) lengthy formal move proposals and debates above. Mind you none have proposed a shorter version of the Indian name. Johnbod (talk) 15:28, 31 January 2023 (UTC)