Talk:Charles Lively (labor spy)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Charles Lively (labor spy)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: GhostRiver (talk · contribs) 16:18, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

I will be reviewing this! — GhostRiver 16:18, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Lede

• Assuming that his full name was Charles Everett Lively, then per WP:HYPOCORISM, only that name should be included, as all of his other aliases are easily derived from that  Done
• Replace hyphen with en dash in Baldwin–Felts Detective Agency  Done
• "20th Century" → "20th century"  Done
• "He gained notoriety for killing a man during the Colorado Coalfield War and as one of the killers Matewan, West Virginia's pro-union police chief, Sid Hatfield after his acquittal for participating in the Battle of Matewan." → "After fatally shooting a man during the Colorado Coalfield War, Lively spent several years working for Baldwin–Felts in the Great Plains before his assignment in Matewan, West Virginia. There, he was one of the men implicated in the assassination of Sid Hatfield, Matewan's pro-union police chief."  Done this has been expanded. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 14:51, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
• On the whole, the lede needs some expansion to be a strong but concise overview of Lively's life  Done

Early career

West Virginia

• The first paragraph from "Personal life and death" should be moved up here so that we have a better idea of where Lively is coming from and aren't just dropped into his adolescent life  Done
• "He started working" → "Lively began working"  Done
• "who became a leader" → "a future leader of"  Done
• "Lively joined the United Mine Workers of America in Kanawha County, West Virginia in 1902.[1] He remained in the union after he went to work for Baldwin-Felts." → "Lively joined the United Mine Worlers of America in Kanahawa County, West Virginia in 1902, and remained in the union even after his work began with the Baldwin–Felts Detective Agency."  Done
• Is it "Mineworkers" or "Mine Workers"? Both are used here  Done (it's Mine Workers)
• "1910 Census" → "1910 United States census"  Done
• "that he was in El Paso County"  Done
• Remove space between period and citation for the sentence ending "than stated in his testimony"  Done
• In 1913, he attending a UMWA convention as a delegate, representing the local in Gatewood, West Virginia, The comma suggests this is an incomplete thought. Also, "he attending" → "he attended"  Done

Colorado

• "and becoming its president" → "before becoming its president"  Done
• "La Veta, Colorado to investigate" → "La Veta, Colorado, and investigate"  Done
• "shot to death" → "fatally shot"  Done
• "and was sentenced to 10 days in jail"  Done
• "which he needed to do for his own protection since it was now known that he was a spy for the detective agency." → "a decision that was necessary for his protection after the union became aware that he was a spy."  Done

Union infiltration in Matewan

• "union sympathizer. This resulted in his being fired. That enhanced his reputation among union coal miners." → "union sympathizer, for which he was fired. This firing only enhanced his reputation with union coal miners."  Done
• "and them to Matewan" → "and then to Matewan"  Done
• Move [12] (currently after "Matewan in") to the end of the sentence, per WP:CITEDENSE  Done
• Comma after "May 19, 1920" per MOS:DATECOMMA  Done
• "February 1921, when he"  Done
• Double period after "stemming from the battle"  Done
• "Charleston, WV" → "Charleston, West Virginia,"  Done
• "Albert and Lee Felts,brother of the co-owner of the agency, Thomas Felts," → "Albert and Lee Felts, brothers of the agency's co-owner Thomas Felts,"  Done
• Link first instance of Sid Hatfield  Done
• Remove "Lively's biographer", mentioned earlier  Done
• "it is clear" → "it was clear"  Done
• Strike "Thus his presence in Matewan was now personal as well as business."  Done
• Missing space between sentences after "killing of the Felts brothers."  Done
• There's some jumbling in the third paragraph, combined with a one-sentence paragraph after. I would move the sentence After the gunfight, Lively helped plan violent actions planned by union men, and was so trusted that he became a bodyguard for Mother Jones and other union officials. to directly after the sentence Lively was now instructed to cultivate friendships with the union participants in the gunfight, and obtain information that would lead to the conviction and execution of Hatfield and the others who were involved in the killing of the Felts brothers. Then, the sentence Thomas Felt accused Hatfield of killing his brother Albert and publicly stated that he wanted to see him hanged. can be placed right after According to Yoho, Lively's biographer, personal records indicate that by then it is clear that Thomas Felts wanted Hatfield dead. Thus his presence in Matewan was now personal as well as business.  Done
• "Brewer's testimony, however, was ultimately ineffective."  Done
• Move After the trial, Lively was expelled from the union for 99 years. to the paragraph before it  Done

Killing of Sid Hatfield and Edward Chambers

• "were shot dead" → "were fatally shot"  Done
• Strike "who was accompanied by his wife"  Done
• "coup-de-grace" → "coup de grâce"  Done
• "in order to lay the groundwork"  Done
• Missing right-hand quote in "signed his own death warrant"  Done

After Matewan

• "He was indicted for pistol-whipping a man while making an arrest. He was found guilty of using unlawful force, fined $100 and sentenced to 60 days in jail. In 1924 he was arrested for beating up a grand jury witness against him." → "There, he was engaged in a number of violent incidents. He was fined $100 and sentenced to 60 days in jail after being found guilty of using unlawful force when he pistol-whipped a man during an arrest. In 1924, Lively was arrested again for assaulting a grand jury witness against him."  Done

Personal life and death

• "one of the eleven children of" → "one of 11 children born to" per MOS:NUM  Done
• ""Everett Lively," and it is unclear if his birth name was "Charles."" → ""Everett Lively", and it is unclear if his birth name was "Charles"." per MOS:LQ  Done
• Missing space between sentences after "six sons and three daughters"  Done
• "20 years younger than him" → "20 years his junior"  Done

In popular culture

• Add clause "which depicts the Battle of Matewan and the subsequent assassination of Hatfield." Done

References

• All of the book references should be as complete as the Yoho ref

 Done at least I believe it has been done. The Yoho ref is the only book I used in expanding the article. Preexisting book references do include the page number so I think addresses that. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 14:51, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

General comments

• No pictures, to those criteria are N/A
• No stability concerns in the revision history
• Earwig score looks great

Putting on hold to allow nominator to address comments. Feel free to ping me if there are any questions. — GhostRiver 19:34, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

@GhostRiver: thanks for getting to this so quickly. The GA instructions (this is my first) said the waiting period can run into the months! Will look at your review. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 05:15, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

@GhostRiver: I believe everything has been addressed. My only area of uncertainty is the book references. I only used Yoho. There are one or two other book references that seem fairly complete, with page numbers. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 14:51, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

I made a few additional MOS fixes, but otherwise, I think that this is good to go! — GhostRiver 18:28, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Great, and thank you for good work on this. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 20:17, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 08:35, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that the notorious labor spy and killer Charles Lively was so successful infiltrating the coal miners union that he once posed for a photo with the famed labor activist Mother Jones? Source: Yoho, R. G. (2020). The Nine Lives of Charles E. Lively: The Deadliest Man in the West Virginia-Colorado Coal Mine Wars. Fox Run Publishing. ISBN 9781945602108, page 47: "He had participated successfully in the strike convention, posing with Mother Jones and other convention leaders for a photograph."

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Robert M. La Follette

Improved to Good Article status by Figureofnine (talk). Self-nominated at 20:58, 23 October 2021 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith Interesting:

QPQ: None required.

Overall: I see no issues. Also congratulations on the GA approval. ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 03:49, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

To T:DYK/P7

is his death notable enough for the intro?

I find it fine that a very brief summary of his prison terms and hotel career are not in the intro and have no issue with that being reverted, even if I think it is notable, but I really do think his suicide is certainly noteworthy and belongs in the intro. Figured I’d bring up here instead of giving off the impression of trying to start an edit war. Thanks for any responses in advance La rodman (talk) 04:47, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

My feeling is that the notable aspects of his life were years before, and that the various post-Matewan ventures and his suicide were pretty secondary. Note that Sid Hatfield does not include his death, and his killing was directly related to his notability! That actually needs to be fixed in my opinion. Had Hatfield died in a similar manner it would be a different issue. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 14:21, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

I just added [1] to the Hatfield article. Note the difference between Hatfield's death and Lively's suicide many years after the detective career that made him notble. Of course, if other editors agree with you I certainly would not object further to text on the death of Lively. I appreciate your not edit-warring over it. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 20:44, 7 October 2022 (UTC)