Talk:Characters of the Metal Gear series/Archive 2

Liquid Snake

Liquid Snake contains nothing but recessive genes, hence his lack of resemblance to Big Boss. Ocelot was referring to Liquid and Solid Snake's disposition as making them inferior or superior. Liquid Snake underwent extreme controlled conditions and emotional learning to make him who he is and is regarded as the superior one. He is their pet project. Solid Snake's natural instincts and soldier experience made him superior, in the end. It is this reason that the Patriots now believe memes are more powerful than genes and abandoned their genetic experiments in favor of the control of information.

Liquid Snake has brown eyes and a stronger chin. These are recessive genetic traits. Big boss shares the most similarities with Solid Snake, who is obviously expressing his dominant genes physically and even through his voice. The big difference between Big Boss and Solid Snake is that Solid Snake has a softer chin and jawline. These are also dominant traits being expressed once any trace of recessive DNA is removed from Big Boss' code. The blue eyes they share is also obvious concerning who has Big Boss' dominant DNA.

Ummm... I'm fairly sure that in MGS, which has a blatant disregard for the basics of Mendelian Genetics, it was made very clear that Liquid actually has the Dominant Genes of the cloning process, but was told otherwise to create a specific behavior pattern. And just so the above Anon knows, brown eyes are a dominant trait.71.59.193.156 07:54, 9 April 2007 (UTC)DragonFireKai

Cyborg Ninja

Cyborg Ninja redirects to Gray Fox. Personally, I don't think this is right, as there have been several Cyborg Ninjas: Gray Fox was just one of them. Perhaps we should put in a disabiguation page? --ChaosSorcerer91 18:44 07/7/06 (GMT)

Actually, what I was thinking was that Cyborg Ninja could point to a Cyborg Ninja section in List of Metal Gear Solid characters, which would in turn link to Gray Fox here, as well as mention the other cybernetic ninjas. To my knowledge, the only character ever called Cyborg Ninja is Gray Fox. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:59, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Essentially, that would be a dab page combined with a short description of Cyborg Ninja's role in MGS. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:01, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

That's a bad idea, as MGS4 hasn't come out and that's just a cheap alternative and warped reasoning for Gray Fox not having an article --203.167.171.38 05:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

The reasoning for Gray Fox not having his own article is because there's nearly nothing you can say about Gray Fox save for plot summary. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I think Olga in MGS2 was called Ninja practically every time she was in the Cyborg suit, and multiple other sources (including the official if I remember correctly) referred to her as Cyborg. Maybe I'm wrong, but oh well. Basically, since Raiden is now a Cyborg Ninja in MGS4, I think it's time we gave Cyborg Ninja its own article, or at least section. I like your idea Man in Black. --ChaosSorcerer91 14:30, 8 August 2006 (GMT)

She was? Hmm, now I need to go replay MGS2 instead of just plowing through the Snake Tales like I usually do when I need a fix. If she was, it'd probably be worth putting a proper dab page at Cyborg Ninja, or at least making a "Cyborg Ninja" header for this list and mentioning each character briefly. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 16:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually in MGS2 Olga was called either, Mr. X or deepthroat, not Cyborg NinjaDarkAvenger280 03:08, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, if you want to be specific, Grey Fox wasn't refered to as the Cyborg Ninja in MGS1 either. I'm not sure about Twin Snakes, but he's never called the Cyborg Ninja in MGS1, he refers to himself as Deepthroat, and everyone else refers to him as either "That ninja" or "The ninja". The Cyborg Ninja is more of a character motif that's repeated throughout the Metal Gear series. The concept is a character whom the player has encountered in an earlier game, who's disguised as an enhanced ninja. It began with Kyle Schneider who was presumed killed in Metal Gear, and came back as the ninja in Metal Gear 2. Then Frank Jaeger, presumed killed in Metal Gear 2, was brought back in MGS. In MGS2, we are introduced to Olga Gurlukovich, who was thought killed in the Tanker prolouge, returns in the Big Shell section of the game. Now Raiden, whom most hoped was killed in MGS2, seems to be returning as the ninja in MGS4. With the exception of Raiden, whom we don't know all the facts about yet, the ninjas all share two common themes. 1) they were presumed dead in a previous scenario, and 2) they all died in their appearance as the ninja. DragonFireKai 14:56, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Wrong. Olga was never "presumed dead" She was tranquilized. And if you return to the deck where you tranquilized her, she's gone, so there's no reason to presume her dead.

However, I did find some similarities between the two big ninjas, Raiden and Jaeger.

1) Both were child soldiers 2) Both had their brains played with 3) Both had nicknames based on their combat prowress (Jack the Ripper, the Frank Hunter) 4) Both vow to protect Snake once they don the Ninja suit

That also leads me to believe that Raiden is going to die protecting Snake like Jaeger did. DeadByDagger 06:07, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

"In Metal Gear Solid, Cyborg Ninja, a ninja in a powered exoskeleton and armed with a high-frequency blade..."

A high-frequency blade?

That's the proper name of Gray Fox's sword. Any problem? Jonny2x4 18:00, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes there is a problem because, the real name of Gray Fox's sword is the Chokuto Sword Otaconx

What about Schneider/Black Color? Shouldn't he be listed? I havent gotten that far in MG2, but the MG2 article refers to him as a cyborg and the precursor to the Cyborg Ninja/Gray Fox. I mean, if we're going to mention Olga, who is just wearing a powered suit and isn't enhanced herself, then we might as well... Onikage725 (talk) 10:02, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

He's already mentioned in the "other characters" sub-section. He's not really important enough to warrant a whole section though. Jonny2x4 (talk) 19:07, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

A cleanup track for the contents of this list and the standalone articles

These lists and these "articles" suck. No two ways about it; they're unsourced, unsourcable, and generally composed entirely of plot summary.

This is what I propose as a cleanup process.

1. Reorder character articles to a real-world order, instead of a fictional-world order. This means that MGS3 comes after MGS2, instead of before MG, and backstory goes with the plot summary of the game where it's revealed.
2. Drastically reduce plot summaries. This is a hard-core reduction; no character needs a plot summary longer than the plot summaries in Solid Snake (now a good article!), and most characters don't even need that.
3. Merge all characters (save Solid Snake and Big Boss) into their respective lists. Anyone who has been in two games or more, at least one of them a Solid game, goes in this list, everyone else goes in the list for their one game.
   • I'd prefer not sticking people into recurring until after their second game is actually released, but I don't feel that strongly. It seems like Bread is good with waiting until the games are released; any other objections?
4. Remove the infoboxes from characters in the lists. (They're huge, full of trivia, and often redundant with the title and intro.)
5. Work on finding referenced out-of-universe info for characters in the recurring list.
6. Once a character has sufficient referenced out-of-universe info to justify a standalone article (which is half or less plot summary/backstory/other in-universe detail), split that character out of the list.

This proposal intentionally disregards any considerations of how important a character is (save in the case of Snake, who already has a GA, and Big Boss, who could certainly sustain at least a GA). If a character is important in the real world, there will certainly be verifiable out-of-universe information on that character.

Characters shouldn't (can't, really) be merged until #1 and #2 are done. If there's a standalone character article for which #5 is already in progress, I'll leave that character article alone to work on other articles that need the #1/#2 work. For example, if someone wants to work on Revolver Ocelot or Raiden (Metal Gear), I'll leave those alone to focus on Otacon and Gray Fox and Meryl, whose articles have little hope of becoming standalone encyclopedia articles any time soon.

This plan will resolve the in-universe perspective issues, which are all but solved (I think only Big Boss still needs #1 cleanup), then the redundancy issues. The merge into the lists will discourage the readdition of plot summary, while centralizing the unexpandable stubs into one useful reference that could later possibly be merged up into a game article. If a character can sustain an article that is more than recapping the plot and backstory of various games, that character can easily be split out again.

Additionally, it doesn't matter one whit how important such-and-such character is to the series. This isn't Metalgearopedia, it's Wikipedia, an encyclopedia about the real world. When talking about importance, we need to be talking about importance in the real world. Characters that are important in the real world can sustain their own articles that are more than plot summary; characters that are not important in the real world cannot. If you think a character is important in the real world, please look for reliable sources discussing that character first, before splitting the character out and writing 30K of plot recap.

If someone has some arguments that address the reasoning behind this plan, now would be the time to bring them out. Additionally, if someone is currently working on adding sources for any currently-standing-alone article, please let me know. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 06:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that this is a solid plan, and could be applied generally to any fictional universe. It leaves open the possibility of spolitting out articles, but only once verifiable real-world information is found.

Why are bothering to ask anyone about this, your just gonna do it anyway. If are in a listening mood i say keep the info-box every, good characters article has one (The Bread 04:38, 16 August 2006 (UTC))

Note that he is leaving open the possibility of separate articles down the road. But given the recent deletion debates centered on overdetailed game-related articles, the merge would probably happen sooner or later, anyway. — TKD::Talk 06:05, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Jeez thanks for that

(The Bread 06:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC))

The infoboxes would be removed because the character lists are near-illegible with it; it almost doubles the size of most of the entries, and is filled with info already in the body or that doesn't need to be in the body. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 12:54, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

You made it bigger, and just because you say you don't need the info doesn't mean we don't,it was smaller before you divided it into In Universe and Real World, of course people are gonna figure out that voice actor and motion actor are real world info, it can be made smaller, drop first game, game series (Really unnesecary) and the in universe divider and you end up with a much smaller infobox already.

(The Bread 04:40, 17 August 2006 (UTC))

The infobox was made bigger to serve standalone articles. It was always too large for list entries, and list entries, by and large, don't benefit from an infobox, as they tend to be short enough to be quickly reviewed. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 08:53, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Meryl as leader of FOXHOUND

Where is it stated that Meryl is the leader of the new FOXHOUND? - Metal gear ninty 09:56, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

In the E3 2006 trailer, and in future put your new comments at the bottom of the page

†he Bread 03:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Raiden

Should be a standalone, as he's the major playable character in Metal Gear Solid 2

False Information

Gray Fox's English voice actor is listed as a "Greg Eagles". What's the source for this? All available sources I have looked at say it is George Byrd, the same man who did the voice of Donald Anderson. He sounds exactly the same as Donald, so where did this Greg Eagles come from? Until someone can find an undeniable source to indicate that Gray Fox was in fact voiced by him, I'm going to change it back to the correct actor.

And don't even think of saying "you remember it wrong". I'm watching the credits as I type this. ;) Village Baka 23:45, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Byrd was an alias used by Eagles in that game, all the actors used an alias (Save for Hayter and Stone)

(The Bread 23:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC))

• kicks self in crotch* D'oh. Thanks for clarifying. :) Village Baka 04:39, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Bread is right on this, but we do need a source. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:35, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Box

This needs to be settled I just reverted from a butchered new version to an old version, we need to decide wheter or not we use the box, any thoughts peoples

†he Bread 04:07, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

The boxes are too big for lists (and can't really be slimmed and stay useful), attract inane trivia, duplicate important info from the prose, and bloat all sections, be it for Otacon or the DOD official. I don't think they do much good for the lists at all. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 06:18, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, what if we say created a seperate List character box, I'm just throwing things out there, but It could be feasible

†he Bread 06:22, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I've tried. We could narrow it down to just voice actors, first game, and image, but that's all just in the first sentence. To make it more informative than the first sentence, we have to make it too large. :/ - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 19:39, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I'll give it a try, I've got a feeling you may be right though Stuff it, you're right, as long as we are consitant throughout the other articles, I'm gonna get to work on MGS1 now

†he Bread 00:14, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Better images

I found a page [1] with 3D artwork of most of the characters on this page plus all fox-hound and revolver ocelot (old self), however, I cant upload them because I dont know how all that copyright stuff works. And on top of it, the page is owned by tripod.

So, if someone can take care of it I would appreciate

Those are character models from Twin Snakes, which have proved unpopular in the past. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:37, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, No Twin Snakes

†he Bread 23:58, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

So? I mean, the characters DO look better in the twin snakes, don't they?

Personally, I think they look like Plasticine manequins. Rather stiff looking.--Captain Capatilism 19:18, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Ac!d

Vamp appears in Metal Gear Ac!d² (I think) Since the title is recurring Metal Gear characters (Not Metal Gear Solid) I think we should put him in here, IMO Drago Petrovich Madnar and Black Color (Kyle Scheinder(sp?)) should be here aswell.

†he Bread 00:02, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

A ton of characters appear only as bosses for a boss rush mode in Acid 2. That's just a minor cameo.

As for the characters who recur between MG and MG2, why separate them from the other characters who appear only in MG and MG2? I guess they technically recur, but they have much more to do with the characters on the classic list than on this list. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:06, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

That's the thing they do recurr and I think only Ocelot (Has his own page) Liquid (Already here) and Vamp appear as bosses in that game

†he Bread 00:08, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Having things on this list is bad. We don't want them here if we can avoid it. This is the miscellaneous page, the dump page for characters who can't easily fit onto another, more-specific list. If there's a more-specific list that will better provide context, then any character who is here should be moved there. Don't move a character here when 95% of what we have to say about that character is about the single game in which they make a significant appearance.

That's the main reason I opposed the MGS:PO- and MGS4-based moves; there was nearly nothing to say about their roles in PO and 4 as of yet because the games aren't out. When a character has a tiny role in a second game (a cameo appearance in Boss Rush, a brief voiceover in the ending, etc.) please don't send them here. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:29, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Why not...

Move Naomi Hunter onto this list? She is a recurring Metal Gear character, and we all know that if she isn't here now, she will be put here when Guns comes out, so we may as well do it now. If it's the size of the article that you're worried about, then it can be trimmed down. It's basicly the same situation with Raiden, he was on the MGS2 list until they gave him his own article because he would re-appear in Guns, so we may as well bring Naomi in here ~ The Haunted Angel 22:16, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I just made a case why not above. Naomi doesn't appear in MGS2 except in the manual, and there's as of yet essentially nothing to say about her MGS4 appearance. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 22:43, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Not in MGS4? She is in multiple trailers for the game, we see her character, she is in the promo art work, we even hear her speaking to Solid Snake about how long he has left to live. It seems a bit pointless not to add her, considering when Guns is released, she will be placed on here anyway. ~ The Haunted Angel 22:52, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Considering ideally we're giving characters who are actually in released games a paragraph per game of plot summary, that's only a couple of sentences of content at most, and invites useless speculation on what maybe two minutes total of content might mean. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:21, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm good either way as long as we go all in, i.e. Zero, Para-Medic, Vamp, Naomi, Sigint, Raikov, and supposedly Sokolov somehow survived MGS3. Going with just one character itself seems a little pointless. We should use this disscussion to get a grsp of what the community as a whole thinks †he Bread 23:11, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm just worried people are using this list as some sort of status symbol for their favorite character - "See, see! So-and-so isn't a one-off, he's recurring!"

This list is the miscellaneous dump list. Putting characters here should be avoided, because it divorces the character from proper context. Characters who "recur" between MG and MG2 really should go on the list with the rest of the MG and MG2 characters, characters who "recur" between Acid 1 and 2 should go with all the other Acid characters, and characters who "recur" only in a largely unimportant cameo appearance really belong with the characters from the single game in which they have a substantive role. Am I the only one who sees why this makes sense? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:21, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Please refraim from mocking everyone, that's very bad behavoir for a supposed "Admin" and making out that what you think is so much more important that what others think, and that's just your interperatation of the list Haunted Angel as a different one and so do I, none of our opions are wrong or not valid they're just different. Since there are two people who think that putting people in this list is "good" and one who thinks it is "bad" I think we can safley ignore that theory and get back to the real issue here of weather or not we should bring Zero, Para-Medic, Vamp, Naomi, Sigint, Raikov, and supposedly Sokolov back to this list, which I am cool with but have no strong feelings toward it either way †he Bread 23:46, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm arguing that your interpretation is wrong. That's not mocking you or bad behavior, and opinions can be wrong. We shouldn't be moving anyone here until it becomes a significant problem for navigation to have them in the lists for their first game, for the reasons I listed above. Feel free to address those reasons whenever you like. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:56, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello,

I am a anonymous user who has been reading Wikipedia articles for the past few months now (particularly the Metal Gear related ones) and in recent times it has become clear to me that there are there main users here at the Metal Gear pages, A Man In Block, Jonny2x4 and the Bread, (The three of you mirror Solid Snake, Solidus Snake and Liquid Snake nicely, lol). There is also a user called Stell359 who has done amazing work at the Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater page, The Haunted Angel i've also noticed frequently editing the Metal Gear related pages. I know I've missed out some other contributers but for what I'm saying they are not important. I've noticed that the three main users I described above are always at each others throats (I read the whole Talk:Solid Snake thing and couldn't stop laughing. Another thing I noticed was the Wikiproject about Computer and Video Games, and here's where I am going with this, I think that there is so much work to be done on (pretty much) all the Metal Gear pages that they may benefit from having a Metal Gear Wikiproject, because I am an Anon with no ambition to sign in and get involved with all the arguing that goes on here, I can't start it, but prehaps one of you might want to start one, I think it would be beneficial to the Metal Gear pages and help you all focus on an exact goal.

Thankyou

Might be a good idea, why do I have to be Liquid though? As for A Man in Block, you say my interpretation is wrong, I say your interpretation is wrong, we get no-where, and this is mocking both me and Haunted Angel "See, see! So-and-so isn't a one-off, he's recurring!" plus you're getting preacy again, we have been adressing them and your just ignoring them. Ahh! This is exactly the same as before, if you bring back just Naomi, i'll revert, If you bring her, Vamp, Para-Medic ect I won't there you go. P.S. I'm gonna think about starting that Wikiproject †he Bread 00:23, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey, no making fun of Liquid. Cam Clarke is the man.

As for a Wikiproject, you'd probably be better off bringing it up as a task group over at WP:CVG, since we're already using most of their tools anyway. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:28, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I've got nothing against Cam Clarke but Liquid is a bit of a dick, I've got nothing else to do but wait for the peer review to expire for Rocky so how would I go about bringing it up as a task group at WP:CVG? (Of which I am not a member) †he Bread 00:38, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I forget if I'm technically a member of WP:CVG myself, but it's not like it matters. Just go and ask them on the talk page. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:41, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Alrighty, cheers

†he Bread 01:03, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, this is stupid. So you will have Mei Ling and Meryl Silverburgh on here, and not Naomi? This is rediculous. Meryl is in the trailers for even less time then Naomi, and it sounds to me that Naomi with have a critical part in the game, as she explains how long Solid has to live. Mei Ling is only in a single game (and I doubt the very brief cameo appearance of her in Sons counts), and yet she is on this page, while she has not even appeared in any trailer I have yet seen. Seriously, I cannot understand how you would have it this way! Personally, I think either Naomi should be added to this article, or you may as well delete the whole thing ~ The Haunted Angel 16:01, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Meyrl appears in Substance, Mei Ling in Substance and Ghost Babel, that's why they are on there. Again I have no problem with you adding Naomi as long as you add, Zero, Vamp, Para-Medic, Sigint, Raikov and (supposedly) Sokolov

†he Bread 23:12, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I can't recall Mei Ling in Substance, but I'll take you're word for it. Also, I do not think that Meryl's (and in turn, Mei Ling's) appearance in Substance would count, as it is a non-canon side story, (and it turn, Ghost Babel). But I will add the other characters on here when I get the time, but why Sokolov? He is pretty dead, as I recall (I'm guessing that Raikov survived Snake Eater, and will be in Portable Ops?) The Haunted Angel 23:19, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Raikov is returning I always kill him when I play MGS3 so I think it's pretty dumb that he is comming back but apparently Sokolov has been confirmed to have survived, (ask J2x4 he added the info on Sokolov returning to the MPO page) which also is unusual because I am playing the tourture bit of Snake Eater now and Volgin says "I guess he's dead" and EVA starts crying

†he Bread 00:54, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Characters should have have detailed information about them, they shouldn't just have a breif overview. Especially Meryl, she has information about her outside MGS and you guys shouldn't be shaving it down so horrifically. --Stripedtiger 03:45, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree with you, I am a huge fan of Metal Gear and pretty much all the characters on this list have enough backstory to be standalone articles, and I'd love them to be like that. But I am also a Wikipedia user and the rules on wikipedia state that plot summary should be kept to a minimum and we should focas on real world stuff.

†he Bread 03:49, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Otacon

I've been putting this off a while but I can't any longer. This is just my opinion, but personally I don't think that Otacon should ever have been merged into here. I liked it better when he had his own article. Basically, ever since MGS, Otacon has been a main character. He backstory was grately expanded in Metal Gear Solid 2, and I think that there is enough info on him for him to have his own article. I always thought that if a person appeared in all of the games, he is considered the main protagonist or antagonist, if a person appeared in three or more of the games, he is considered a main character, and if he appears in less than that, he is considered a supporting/recurring character. Otacon has, as of Guns of the Patriots, appeared in three. --ChaosSorcerer 11:49 10/7 GMT

He's appeared in two games, then, as one is released. More importantly, there's nothing to say about him that isn't just plot summary. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 14:28, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Thing is if yo de-merge Otacon you pretty much have to de-merge Campbell who has appeared in 4

†he Bread 00:48, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Bread, I understand your logic but I do have a belief that Otacon deserves his own artcle. Man in Black, you say that there is nothing to say about him that isn't plot summary, but what about his childhood, his relationship with Emma, his affair with his stepmother, his days in the FBI (was it FBI?), and his creation of Metal Gear. You know, his whole backstory.

Otacon has a close relationship with the protagonist, which I believe warrents more than anything the criteria to be a main character. But I understand your logic that Colonel Campbell would need to be de-merged too, but I disagree because Campbell hasn't appeared enough to warrent his own article. His backstory hasn't been established as much as Otacon. Campbells in the trailer for MGS4 and maybe after that game he WOULD deserve his own article. But on the subject of Otacon, what do you think? ChaosSorcerer91 09:16, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

why isn't naomi hunter a recurring character?

if she is going to appear in MGS4 why isn't she a recurring character --206.207.175.163 17:47, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Because MGS4 hasn't come out yet

†he Bread 22:50, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Order

Someone has moved the characters order around into something that resembles the order in which they recurred. But with this order Jonny would be before Meyrl and other things would ocurr. So I am going to put my in-universe hat on and re-order them into what I belive is a better and more representative of each characters importance order

†he Bread 22:55, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Gray Fox Article?

Now that Frank Jaeger / Null / Gray Fox has appeared as a major character in a majority of the canon Metal Gear titles (4/6), anyone else think he deserves his own article again? Olga has her own place on the MGS2 page, and Raiden has his own article. I don't think a "Cyborg Ninja" article is really appropriate, especially since Olga isn't even a cyborg. A trivia note somewhere that it's a recurring theme in Metal Gear would probably be better. WtW-Suzaku 02:40, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Deserve, schmeserve. Where are the references from which this proposed article is going to be derived? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:34, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Frank, MPO, REALLY a retcon? Maybe not...

Near as I can tell, it's only a retcon as far as Millenium's Official Mission Handbook guide and the assumptions of many fans is concerned. Despite being "official", the Handbook isn't exactly the best source on character biographies, as it contains fabrications for the sake of elaboration.

After going back and checking the game scripts, nothing spoken in Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake or Metal Gear Solid actually contradicts his past in MPO. Seriously, go look at the scripts yourself. MG2:SS doesn't say he was a child when he was placed in a Vietnamese labor camp, it just said he was living there after the war. Likewise, there is nothing to indicate that he can't go back to Mozambique after MPO. In fact, him going there to try and get revenge sounds fairly plausible to me... WtW-Suzaku 02:40, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

WARNING: LONG, LONG POST ABOUT POLITICAL HISTORY, FOX'S HISTORY, MGS SCRIPTS, AND HOW KOJIMA HAS SCREWED UP EVERYTHING

It's possible. It is implied in Metal Gear 2 when Fox compares himself to the war orphans in Zanzibar, but the idea that it's been this way the whole time does make SOME sense... Portable Ops correctly identifies the start of the Mozambican Revolution as 1964, in which Fox is supposed to be a member of FRELIMO. In Metal Gear 2, Fox says that he was a member of RENAMO, which was an anti-Communist resistance group in the Mozambican Civil War in the 1980's. Mozambique has had history with its neighbor South Africa, which would easily explain Fox's German-speaking and extremely light skin and hair as his descent from the Boers, who reached Mozambique.

But, there are some problems with the politics involved. Mozambique's government supported rebel groups in Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) and South Africa. RENAMO, on the other hand, was funded by Rhodesia and South Africa. This all clearly connects to Outer Heaven - 200km south of Salzburg, South Africa - and Naomi - whom Fox found in Rhodesia during the '80s and took back to Mozambique -, right? Problem: Fox, as a RENAMO soldier, would have been supported by Rhodesia in the 1980's. Yet Fox killed Naomi's parents (Indian laborers) in an attack on a Rhodesian village. Not only that, but South Africa had apartheid going on. Fox, as a half-white who experienced mass racism, wouldn't have been likely to accept help from a government supporting extreme social segregation. That also makes Big Boss receiving help from them unlikely; rather, it's implied that he helped Fox when he was captured because of their prior friendship. The third political problem is that Fox's rebel group as a child, FRELIMO, actually became the Communist government of Mozambique in 1975; the same government that RENAMO was fighting against. That's not exactly "revenge."

Finally, there's one huge problem considering the times. Let's say that Fox was in his early adolescence in 1964, and a late teen in 1970, as Portable Ops claims. Let's lowball it and say 16 years old in 1970, at the very least. When Fox found Naomi, it would have to have been, at least, 1980 when he found Naomi. The very youngest is 26. Both Fox and Naomi mention him being young, but 26 at the youngest seems pushing it. Now let's give the upper limits: 19 in 1970, finding Naomi in 1986, the end of the war. Meaning that Fox has to have 26-35 years old. That's starting to push "young." So much so that it flies in the face of what Nastasha's book in MGS2 states. It plainly changes Naomi's phrasing from "young" to "a child soldier," and then goes into a short passage about child soldiers in civil wars. But Naomi's book rephrases a lot of the dialog (and spells Jaeger as Yeager, though that's an easily forgivable mistake), so it's possible that it's just supposed to be her forgetting it or something.

So in all, Fox's status and his history are far too muddled to really define what counts as a retcon or not. Everything about it seems to sync up with something else while disagreeing with another. Him being a child soldier in Mozambique works with MGS1 and MPO, but the dates are 20 years apart. Him being an older soldier in Mozambique works in MG2 and MPO, but the age contradicts MGS1. And the politics are completely contradictory of what you'd expect.

Some of it can be attributed to Kojima's tendency to fiddle with things from past games, but overall it seems that the only consistent themes are that he spent a lot of time in Southern Africa in Mozambique and history as a child soldier. So it's really useless to try an article about it until the games spell out a modern official timeline of Fox's life from the 1964-1990. And as you can clearly see from my huge monstrosity of a post, talking about it just gets confusing and would take up WAY too much space. --04:01, 14 December 2006 (UTC)Smashedty

Gray Fox was supposed to be a child soldier when he found Naomi according to the original Japanese dialogue (she uses the term shonen heishi, literally "boy soldier"). MPO basically messed up Gray Fox's entire backstory. Not just his background as a Vietnam War orphan that was taken under Big Boss' wing, but his age as well. I would've enjoyed the story alot more if it wasn't for that. Jonny2x4 03:11, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, he was said to be a child soldier when he found Naomi. Also, according to the Official Metal Gear Solid Handbook, Grey Fox's birthdate is said to be "sometime in the 70's." So this is definitely a retcon.--NWalterstorf 17:27, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's deliberate retcon, but it's definitely a great incosistency.Jonny2x4 04:35, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Sokolov moved to "recurring Metal Gear characters"

I've moved Sokolov's section from the "list of Metal Gear Solid 3 characters" article over to the "list of recurring Metal Gear characters" article because he re-appears in Metal Gear Solid: Portable Ops. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.161.114.18 (talk) 19:59, 15 December 2006 (UTC).

I moved it back, since virtually everyone who wasn't killed off in MGS3 appears in some form or another in MPO (nevermind that Sokolov himself is supposed to dead anyway). If you consider Sokolov to be recurring characters, then you might as well move EVA, Major Zero, Para-Medic, Sigint and Raikov too. Then you're just left with just The Cobras, Volgin and Granin.

I considering putting information about the cast MPO into the MGS3 characters page and call the whole thing List of Metal Gear Solid prequels characters. Jonny2x4 01:50, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

That's an excellent idea and a horribly awkward name. I'm not sure how to improve the name, though.- A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:15, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

We could use List of Cold War Metal Gear Solid characters, but that might be too in-universe. Either that or List MGS3 and MPO characters. Considering that MG1+2 and MGA1+2 share their character pages, even though MG1+2 only shares two characters and MGA1+2 shares none, it seems fair to do the same with MGS3 and MPO. Jonny2x4 02:41, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and created Characters in Metal Gear Solid: Portable Ops, although I still feel that the article is better off being merged with List of Metal Gear Solid 3 characters in one unified list than by its own. Jonny2x4 06:43, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Please change the name of the article to List of Metal Gear Solid: Portable Ops characters, Jonny2x4.

Actually you should put Sokolov into the "recurring metal Gear Characters" page along with Para-Medic, and Sigint, as they are included in the Main storyline (Sokolov more than the other two) - DarkAvenger280 03:13, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

You fail to read. If we put every MGS3 character who had a bit role in MPO, then it would just be a list of bosses in the game. The only returning MGS3 characters who are even revelant to the plot are Sokolov and Ocelot, and both are already mentioned in the MPO article. Jonny2x4 18:48, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Why not divide the two articles into List of major characters from Metal Gear prequels and List of minor characters from Metal Gear prequels

The list would be as follows

Major

• Major Zero
• Para-Medic
• Sigint
• Roy Campbell
• The Boss
• Volgin
• Gene
• Sokolov
• Ocelot
• EVA

Minor

Everyone else incl. Raikov

That's pretty much my idea, only without the whole major/minor split, which is pretty pointless since there are only few minor characters like Raikov and Col. Skowronski or whatever the hell that Russian colonel was called.Jonny2x4 13:05, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Revolver Ocelot

Since he has his own article, I took the info that was at the article. Oh, and if you wanna argue that he should be included here, remember that he is not only the most persistent antagonist in the series, but also the character that appears in every Metal Gear Solid.

Null/Frank Jaegar/Cyborg Ninja Question

I haven't yet played 'Metal Gear Solid:Portable Ops' as of yet, due to the fact that its not yet released in Europe untill April (although the european version will have extra features such as '2 new maps, a new 'Boss battle' mode,12 new characters and "Existing characters will get expanded careers, which now focus on key attributes" ' ,so every cloud has a silver lining :D).

What I want to know is,just outta curiosity, what in the MGS:PO game is it that states that Null and Frank Jaegar are the same person? From reading the Gray Fox article,the forum on RETCON, and what we know from previous games about Frank Jaegar's past (Being Held prisoner in METAL GEAR game,featuring in METAL GEAR 2:SOLID SNAKE on Big Boss's side) they surely cant be the same guy? Agile Panda 01:52, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

First, Wikipedia talk pages are meant to be about the article not the subject. But yes Null is Fank Yaeger/Gray Fox. Though it does retcon some of Fox's past, his age was never stipulated and IMO the age differnece between him and Snake hasn't really changed, only minor elements of his backstory

†he Bread ³⁰⁰⁰ 02:28, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Merge from Patriots (Metal Gear)

Please merge any relevant content from Patriots (Metal Gear) per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Patriots (Metal Gear) (2nd nomination). Thanks. —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-02-11 11:34Z

Meryl the Colonels Daughter?

I'm sure I remember hearing in a codec convo that Meryl was actually Campbell's daughter, his brother took her from him because he was to young or something. Or have I been mistaken! Jackacon 19:28, 19 February 2007 (UTC) oops my bad, read on the article... the opening of it confused meJackacon 19:32, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Ninja fact

First of nothing i want to say that i think this article is a very bad idea and i rather that at least 10 more major characters had his own articles but the thing i wanna talk about is that maybe worth mentioning that Gray Fox has much in common with Enersto "che" Guevara, the cuban warrior, is only a idea but it may be worth mencion Zidane tribal 23:51, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Read WP:OR

†he Bread³⁰⁰⁰ 01:58, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah. You are right Zidane tribal 19:26, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Merging articles (see "A cleanup track for the contents of this list and the standalone articles")

I had a go at merging Ocelot and Raiden into this article in accordance with number 3 on the list set out in the aforementioned post (and at the top of the talk page).

Oh, and if you feel it needs to be reverted, please don't just revert it. Explain it here. --ChaosSorcerer91 10:01, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

No objection here. I actually merge Ocelot back here myself a while ago, but it got reverted with the only explanation given was that "he is a major antagonist in the series".

Personally I think Meryl and Mei Ling should be in the MGS1 list and Raiden into the MGS2 list, since their other appearances outside that game were either cameos (Mei-Ling's VO-only cameo in MGS2) or non-canonical side-stories (Ghost Babel and Drama CD). Same thing with Liquid Snake, who is technically only a ghost possessing Ocelot's body in MGS2 (and MGS4).Jonny2x4 01:39, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Vamp,Raiden,Meryl,Roy Cambell,Otacon,All have been in 2 games or more

..ummm yeah all 4 of those characters have been 2 or more games.Also what happened to the Raidena article?--Hitamaru 20:34, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

This list used to have Naomi and Vamp (before Vamp's appearance in the new MGS4 trailers), but they were taken out of the list due to the simple fact that MGS4 isn't out yet. Raiden, Meryl and Mei Ling are only here on account of non-canonical appearances (the Drama CD, Ghost Babel, Substance and Subsistence, not to mention Meryl was a Policenauts character before being in MGS). The Raiden and Ocelot articles were merged here because they were mostly plot summary anyway. Jonny2x4 01:24, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

oK :(--Hitamaru 13:55, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Raiden

should we put the fact that Raiden has a five year old kid in MGS4

do you have a source to confirm this supposed fact? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.34.217.222 (talk) 19:03, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Campbell and Snake

Maybe it's just because I'm a bit of a softie, but I thought Snake and Campbell's relationship should be better defined. I know he's listed as Snake's "close friend", but I think something along the lines of "Despite the fact that the depth of their personal relationship has never been entirely defined within the context of the games, and more often than not seems to boil down to a simple 'combat buddy' camaraderie, Campbell is one of the few (only? Not sure...) characters that Solid Snake considers a true friend. Campbell himself seems surprised by this revelation in their CODEC conversation during Metal Gear Solid ("You're still calling me a friend?") and is not entirely unflattered by this. His response and attitude implies that the feeling is mutual." Okay, so I went a bit on, but still, I think it should be important considering how disconnected Solid usually acts towards most people. He's shown respect and fondness for some characters, but Campbell seems to be the only character except Gray Fox who he treats as an equal (probably because of their kinship as soldiers), and the only one of the two he flat-out calls a "friend." In a way he might fill a void where Big Boss used to be as a commander/father figure, at least the way I see it, but I don't think anything explicit has been mentioned about it in-game. If there is, feel free to put some references. Otherwise, though, I think the friendship thing should be expanded (I think my blurb sums it up pretty well... :) 64.235.205.72 (talk) 20:44, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:EVAsnakeeater.jpg

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Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 19:52, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Liquid Ocelot?

Which character can really be considered to be the real Liquid Ocelot? I think its a bit presumptuous to assume that Liquid Ocelot is Revolver Ocelot with Liquid Snake's personality rather than Liquid Snake's mind in Revolver Ocelot's body. Especially considering the Japanese version uses Liquid's voice, while the English version uses Ocelot's voice. For now I suggest leaving the Revolver Ocelot header as it is. Jonny2x4 (talk) 18:25, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Removing Liquid Snake from the recurring list.

Considering he's just a dormant personality in Ocelot's mind after MGS1, anything involving him in the sequels will simply be reiterated in the Revolver Ocelot section. If there's no objection to this, then I'll do it. Jonny2x4 (talk) 22:37, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

He's not actually "just" a dormant personality after MGS1. Throughout MGS2 he manifests, and in Metal Gear Solid 4, he has actually taken over Revolver's body as the dominant (or only) personality. I would say that both he and Ocelot deserve to be considered recurring characters, but that's just me. WtW-Suzaku (talk) 06:08, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

The point is that there's not much he doesn't do that doesn't involve his mind taking control of Ocelot. I think its better to just list everything he does in the Ocelot than to create two separate sections essentially saying the same thing. Jonny2x4 (talk) 18:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

MGS4 characters

I'm afraid this article is slowly turning into a thinly-disguised list of returning characters in MGS4. Outside of Gray Fox and the characters mentioned in "Other characters", everyone else is in the list because they make some sort of returning appearance in MGS4, not because they're truly "recurring".

• Otacon - Major character in MGS1 and 2. Was referenced in MGS3 and has a role in MGS4
• Roy Campbell - Supporting character in MG2, MGS1 and MPO. Has a role in MGS4.
• Revolver Ocelot - Major character thorough MGS1-4. Has a bit role in MPO.
• FOXHOUND - Major group in all the games.
• The Patriots - Major group in the series since MGS2.

Then it goes downhill.

• Meryl Silverburgh - Major character in MGS1 and has a role in MGS4. Originally based on a Policenauts characters. Appeared in a few MGS spinoffs (Drama CD, Substance) outside of that, but nothing important to the canon.
• Mei Ling - Supporting character in MGS1, with a voice-only cameo in MGS2 and a speaking role in MGS4. Outside of that, she was in a Drama CD and in Ghost Babel, but nothing important to the canon.
• Naomi Hunter - Supporting character in MGS1 who has a role in MGS4.
• Johnny - Minor joke character in MGS1-2 with some role in MGS4 (and not even voiced by the same actor).
• Vamp - Boss character in MGS2 who has a role in MGS4. Outside of that, he appeared in some non-notable Boss Rush mode in MGA2.
• Rosemary - Supporting character in MGS2 with some role in MGS4. Her other appearance was in some joke trailer.
• EVA - Major character in MGS3 with a bit role in MPO. Happens to have a role in MGS4.

I'm starting to truly question the purpose of this list, whether it'll be better off to simply just list in the games where they first appear, other than those who actually recur for more than one game like Ocelot and Campbell. Jonny2x4 (talk) 03:09, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The fact is that those are recurring characters now. I believe the point of this article was to cover all of the characters who appeared in more than one Metal Gear game, and as many MGS and MGS2 one-shot characters are returning in MGS4, of course they would be added to the list of recurring characters. Just because they're only recently becoming recurring characters doesn't mean that, for some reason, they shouldn't be included. I also think it would be a pretty terrible idea to include plot details for Metal Gear Solid 4 in a "List of Metal Gear Solid 2 characters" article, especially considering the amount of spoilers it would likely include.

That said, you also didn't include the "Other Recurring Characters" listed somewhat sadly at the bottom of the article, all by their lonesome: Dr. Pettrovich Madnar (MG, MG2), Kyle Schneider (MG, MG2), and Master Miller (MG2, MGS), who should perhaps be dispersed into the main body of the article. Sokolov should also be included, as he returned in MPO with the alias "Ghost". One could also, perhaps, argue for the inclusion of Nastasha Romaneko, as she is given a brief mention in MGS2 and in the book she wrote in-universe, which is available to read, though it may be a stretch. WtW-Suzaku (talk) 06:02, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Almost everyone who didn't died in MGS3 had some role in MPO (Para-Medic, Sigint, Zero, Sokolov, Raikov and even the DCI, a minor character), because the plot is closely tied to MGS3. Otherwise, they're not really major characters in MPO compared to Snake, Roy, and the FOX members, which is why they're still in the MGS3 list and not in this article. The game also had easter egg appearances by Teliko and Venus from MGA and MGA2, but I don't think anyone will agree they should be promoted to recurring status. As for why Schneider, Madnar and Miller are in a "others" list is because there's not much to be said about them that could be summarized in one or two phrases. Madnar and Schneider are only featured in the MSX2 games, while Miller is mainly notable for being killed off and impersonated by Liquid in MGS1. Jonny2x4 (talk) 18:03, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Addendum: I think we might be adding the MGS3/MPO characters to this list after all in light of some recent spoilers I've seen. Jonny2x4 (talk) 20:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)