Talk:Château de Chinon

Gallo-Roman castrum

I was able to find a source for the Gallo-Roman fort on the site, but Wheeler didn't go any earlier than the 5th century, although that doesn't rule out the site being earlier especially as new evidence may have been found in the last 30 years. I have removed the following statement from the article because I couldn't find a source for it:

recent excavations during the restoration of the château have uncovered arms and ornaments dating from the 1st century AD.

It's quite possible some 1st century finds may have been discovered during the restoration which began in 2003, but I'm leaving the information here until a source can be presented. Nev1 (talk) 16:30, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Suggestion for external link

I would like to suggest the following external link. It has both text and plenty of good images. [1]...although for the image gallery you have to click the link at the bottom of the page. Collieman (talk) 15:36, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure if it's worth including. It bears a striking resemblance to this old version of the Wikipedia article. Nev1 (talk) 15:44, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. I hadn't given the duplicate text any thought before. I guess you get so used to reading the same ideas time and again that you lose sight of questions like this. I ran the page through copyscape and there were something like 27 other sites with similar phrases. Ok a lot were Q&A sites but it does show the extent that phrases get duplicated. Interestingly when i ran the detailed information page ( behind the main intro page ) there were no duplicates at all. The original request was really based around the value of the images

[2]

and the video embedded

[3]

which I thought between them added something worthwhile. Let me just leave it that if ever you felt it was worthwhile making the link then it would be very welcome Kind regards

Collieman (talk) 09:57, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Château de Chinon/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Hchc2009 (talk · contribs) 19:37, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

1. Well-written:

(a) the prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct;

• "The importance of Chinon derives..." Is the tense right in this paragraph? It felt like this ought to be in the past tense, rather than the present.

• You're right, it should be past tense. Changed. Nev1 (talk) 17:03, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• "a Gallo-Roman castrum has been established" - "had been"

• Done. Nev1 (talk) 17:03, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• " historian W. L. Warren speculated that Chinon numbered amongst these castles" - NB: these castles were in Poitou, which was the traditional territory given to "second sons" of the family.

• I've had a go at further explaining Warren's suggestion along the lines you highlighted. I'm tempted to expand the following sentence to "Regardless of whether Geoffrey gained control of Chinon and the other castles on his father death, they were his by 1152 when he rebelled against his older brother Henry." Do you think that would work? Nev1 (talk) 17:25, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• In the intervening years, his brother had been crowned King Henry II of England after a civil war." - as written, it suggests the civil war was between the first and second revolt, which isn't quite right - only part of it was; how about "England, at the end of a long-running civil war."?

• Fair point, I've opted for your suggested wording. Nev1 (talk) 17:03, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• " It was a primary residence of Henry II who was responsible for construction of almost all of the massive castle,[8] encompassing a site over 500 metres long and 75m wide, with a clock tower (14th century) rising 115 feet (35 m) high." - while it makes clear that the clock tower is 14th century, it still reads at first glance as though Henry built the clock tower - is there any way of separating the clock from Henry?

• The final statement regarding size (and what I assume is the highest part of the castle) is a relic from before the article was rewritten. I've not been able to find a source for the size so have removed it for now, but it's useful having the measurements here for future reference. Nev1 (talk) 17:03, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• "Henry II's eldest son, also called Henry, had been crowned King of England alongside his father but had no land of his own and was angered by the situation" - partially he was angry because the castles being given to John actually belonged to him, although Henry II continued to actually control them in practice; it might be worth noting that while he had no lands of his own, he did own the castles.

• Double checking this against your article on Henry II, I see you reference the same section of Warren 1973 (pp.117-8) for the assertion that these castles belonged to Henry the Young King as this article does. I'm not entirely sure that's what the source is saying though: "Henry the Younger protested at this, saying that he had no wish to grant his brother these properties, and that his father had no right to dispose of them without his approval." This could be interpreted as Henry was annoyed because these castles were his but it's not crystal clear. Gillingham 2002 p.42 deals with the situation in his biography of Richard but doesn't clear things up. "This proposal enraged young Henry . He had done homage for Normandy and Anjou at Montmirail and he had been crowned king of England in 1170. Yet he had never been assigned any lands from which he might maintain himself and his queen ... The proposal to transfer Chinon, Loudon and Mirebeau to a mere child was surely just a trick giving Henry II an excuse to keep these castles in his own hands for many years to come." "Keep" suggests that these castles didn't (yet) belong to Henry the Younger, and what Gillingham says next indicates he may have expected to inherit them: "Young Henry, as count of Anjou, angrily refused to give his consent to the plan. Instead he demanded that at least part of his inheritance should be handed over to him at once: either England or Normandy or Anjou." Nev1 (talk) 17:53, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• Fair one. I'll check as we go through the Henry article too. Hchc2009 (talk) 18:07, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

• " in 1312 the pope issue a bull," - "issued"

• That's an annoying mistake, fixed. Nev1 (talk) 14:04, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

• "The leaders were sentenced to life imprisonment apart from Jacques de Molay and Geoffrey de Charney who were burnt at the stake.[27]" - I think this needs a comma somewhere, probably after "imprisonment"

• One added where you suggested. Nev1 (talk) 14:04, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

• "The houses of Plantagenet and Valois both laid claim. " - this read a bit strangely; is it worth making it run on from the previous sentence

• On reflection, this sentence doesn't seem necessary so I've removed it. To any readers who don't know what the houses were it complicates matters, and for people who do it is redundant to the previous sentence. Nev1 (talk) 14:04, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

• " the control of unfriendly force" - "forces"

• Done. Nev1 (talk) 14:04, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

• "250,000 tourist a year " "tourists"

• Done. Nev1 (talk) 14:04, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

• "royal lodgings (Logis Royales)" - for consistency, should this be in italics like castrum earlier?

• Good point, done]. Nev1 (talk) 14:04, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

• "which existed only as groundwork" - I wasn't 100% sure I understood this; is groundwork foundations? From the picture it looks like only the foundations remained.

• On reflection, I'm really not happy with "groundwork" which seems to have been a term I made up. I've opted for a different approach, deciding to mention the excavations (the photo does a good job of demonstrating how much of Fort St-George survives). Nev1 (talk) 14:04, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

• "Standing as it does on a rocky outcrop" - minor, but you could safely lose the "as it does" here

• Fair point, done. Nev1 (talk) 14:04, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

• "(divided into three enclosures)" - slightly repetitious wording, as the same phrase is in the previous sentence

• I've changed it to "which also consists of three three enclosures", how does that read? Another option would be to get rid of the explanation of Chateau Gaillard being split into three wards and leave it as the more vague "layout". Nev1 (talk) 14:04, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

• " the Château de Milieu has phases dating from the 12th to 14th centuries" - "phases" sounded odd here, I'm not sure why. "built in phases"? "parts dating from..."?

• I've made it less jargon-y. Nev1 (talk) 14:04, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

• " The round Tour du Coudray" - an aside, but the symbolism of these round keeps is really interesting!

• I don't recall coming across anything on the symbolism of the towers so any pointers where this discussed would be great. Did the symbolism derive from their popularisation by Philip Augustus or does it go beyond that? Nev1 (talk) 14:04, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

• I think I used Durand, pp.29, 57 and Gondoin, p.156 in the keep article - he built them where he was trying to reestablish his dynastic claims, I think. Hchc2009 (talk) 18:07, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

(b) it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.

• Clear. Hchc2009 (talk) 06:42, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

2. Factually accurate and verifiable:

(a) it provides references to all sources of information in the section(s) dedicated to the attribution of these sources according to the guide to layout;

• Fine at GA. It's not a formal requirement at GA, but some of the capitalisation for the book titles would need tweaking in advance of a FA bid (some of them are in lower case, whereas I think the MOS would have them in upper). Hchc2009 (talk) 07:08, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

(b) it provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines;

• "The importance of Chinon..." paragraph lacks a reference.

• I've added some sourced and about halved the length of the paragraph (then merged it with the following paragraph), how does it look now? Nev1 (talk) 17:08, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

• It might be worth checking what the source for "Since 1840, the castle has been recognised as a monument historique by the French Ministry of Culture." is - it's a specific date, but there's no citation for it. Hchc2009 (talk) 06:42, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• Source added. Nev1 (talk) 18:03, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

(c) it contains no original research.

• Clear. Hchc2009 (talk) 06:42, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Broad in its coverage:

(a) it addresses the main aspects of the topic;

• All good. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:08, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

(b) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).

Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias.

• Neutral. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:12, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.

• Stable. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:12, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Illustrated, if possible, by images:

(a) images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content;

• Copyright statuses all good. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:12, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

(b) images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.