Talk:Cathy O'Brien (conspiracy theorist)/Archive 1

Archive 1

From ]talk:project monarch

talk:Cathy O'BrienHello, I have firm arguments for the existence of the Monarch programming article: 1) Let's see Google searching - about 4 330 000 results(0.15 sec). These are written evidence of about 4 millions people who know about term "monarch programming" and who have made articles about it. So you can see that is impossible that the article is original research.

2) http://www.getacd.org/listen_iu5EtbyPNS8/cathy_o_brien_trance_formation_of_america_1_7

• http://books.google.com/books?id=vchgWeG7YawC&printsec=frontcover
• The Illuminati Formula Used to Create an Undetectable Total Mind Controlled Slave, by Cisco Wheeler and Fritz Springmeier
• Project Monarch: Nazi Mind Control by Ron Patton
• Origins and Techniques of Monarch Mind Control
• http://alchemicaltechnologies.blogspot.com/

these are some of the major independent source of information you can see a thousands of them - some are publish online and they are free.

3)If the facts in these books have been a complete lie why the government agencies mentioned to be involved in such despicable and illegal activities do not start trial against the authors of statements that exposed the as absolute villains? I think we all know the answer and it is very simple. Silence is the tactics of guilty conscious.

I will ask for support for that external link. I think that Bulgarians reader will mark it that it is notable reference. Others can use the Google translate features.

http://alchemicaltechnologies.blogspot.com/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rollmodel (talk • contribs) 16:23, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Monarch programming - this is really a very dangerous way to put people in slavery!!! And this thing is not some kind of illusion - this is something real that happening all over the world! For example : http://alchemicaltechnologies.blogspot.com/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.10.28.135 (talk) 20:00, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Vox populi - vox dei - http://alchemicaltechnologies.blogspot.com !!!

• You can remove the deletion template if you object to the article's deletion. It will probably then be taken through the AfD process, where you can make these arguments in a more public forum. DoctorKubla (talk) 08:22, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

I object to article's deletion. I insist it be taken through the AfD process, where I can make these arguments in a more public forum. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rollmodel (talk • contribs) 10:51, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

There's not a snowball's chance in hell the page would survive the AFD discussion given those sources. Blogs, web fora and whale.to are not reliable sources even for a fringe theory like this one. Google hits are not useful for anything. The New Inquisition produces no relevant results for Monarch or O'Brien. Your interpretation of "independent" doesn't meet our criteria for reliability or notability. Given the sources and the obvious consensus, I've used common sense and redirected the page here. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 15:03, 30 March 2012 (UTC)---------------------------------------

YOU SAY OUR STANDARDS, are you one of the chief editors who decides what is allowed in wiki articles? How can a book published by oxford house not meet your criteria for reliability or notability? Wheres the consensus? Your voice? When you say freely available web documents are not allowed, but it says newspaper articles which are freely available online are allowed, and lots of the articles have links to non-governmental webpages so is it only in the case of non-controversial issues that freeweb pages are allowed? Or are you saying that each author has to buy their old fashioned hard copy sources, thus the knowledge on Wikipedia can only be provided by those with resources? Freely available online journals are not allowed because they are free? And that springter is not a self-published work but is a publishing company. Who gets to vote in these things, just senior editors like yourself? On the cults artilce the following is deemed a good enough website: http://www.religioustolerance.org/acm.htm so what websites are deemed to be published by a 3rd party?

— Preceding unsigned comment added by TheSpaceBetween2 (talk • contribs) 00:26, 11 September 2012 (UTC) 

Monarch programming (trauma based programming) is scientific method for impacting human psychic, based on violation the universe law of free will and fragmenting of human consciousness to different self-contained parts. The technique origins from the dark priest of Babylonian cabal of the Illuminati. Initially it serves their god masters and during the centuries they start utilizing the technique for their own purposes.

According hermetic knowledge the matter of Monarch programming is based on the fundamental principle that human mind is a mathematical matrix that can be extended to 13*13 separated and in independent person individuals. The fragmentation of human conscious is done extreme pain – physical, spiritual or even both. The dark masters of this technique forced violently the victim conscious to collapse and to be fragmented. After that they form new individual person who do not know about the other sharing the same body.

This is what really O.Brian has been trough. Let's people talk about that! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rollmodel (talk • contribs) 16:13, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Reliable sources indicate MKULTRA was an essential failure and the generation of dissociative alters through traumatic programming is a myth. Project Monarch is not discussed in any reliable sources that I'm aware of, but please feel free to provide them. Wikipedia is not a soapbox to promote fringe theories about unsubstantiated conspiracy theories. We don't lower our standards because people allege they've been tortured. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 16:20, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

My dear wiki friends, MK ULTRA and monarch programming evidences are real. They are kept very carefully in the CIA file storages. Why do not we write an open letter to them about the case. The fact that something is classified do not make it automatically false.

About the new forms of inquisitors of mind:

"people allege they've been tortured" - do you have a degree in forensics to make such a summery. The scars of trauma based torture can be observed only by expert at forensics. When you claim "people allege they've been tortured" please expose to public your license to make such professional conclusion at the area of forensics. Otherwise your position could be considered as unreliable sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rollmodel (talk • contribs) 16:34, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Not your friend. If you can't verify your claims with reference to reliable sources, they shouldn't be here and will be removed. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 16:53, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/illuminati_formula_mind_control.htm

"The Illuminati Formula Used to Create an Undetectable Total Mind Controlled Slave, by Cisco Wheeler and Fritz Springmeier" - what about that source of information - is it not reliable? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.130.73.253 (talk) 20:06, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Who is the publisher? Looks like it's a freely available web document or vanity press (amazon gives the publisher as "Springmeier & Wheeler". Self-published works are not reliable per our guidelines on reliable sources (WP:RS), particularly for such extreme claims. Fritz Springmeier isn't a reliable source. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 20:15, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

And what about this - http://www.parallelreality-bg.com/index.php/statii/control/348-2011-07-21-16-49-00.html- ? Even in the Balkans the technique of monarch programming has been exposed and has been described. You can see - just use the Google translate features. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.130.73.253 (talk) 06:53, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Random webpages are not reliable sources. Please also see our policies on notability, fringe theories, what wikipedia is not (particularly WP:SOAP) and neutrality; it's very possible, in fact it's almost inevitable, that these ideas have no place on wikipedia. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 14:10, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

her parents

Is it ok if I try and dig up some information on her parents? I'll post any information found on the talk page and let consensus decide the WP:V. Boomer Vial (talk) 20:24, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Claims about Richard Helms are false and potentially libelous and must be removed

The article makes this claim, which is false. "In 1977, Richard Helms was suspended by the US Congress for lying about the US government's anti-government activities abroad and illegal surveillance domestically.[9]"

The US Congress has no ability to "suspend" members of the executive branch. This is the US Government, and the Congress has very limited powers for interfering with the operations of the executive branch, including the CIA. The only mechanism that the US Congress has for removing individual apointees from office is impeachment. Richard Helms was not impeached by the Congress.

The claim that he was "suspended" in 1977 is also obviously wrong based on history. Richard Helms served as Director of Central Intelligence from June 30, 1966 – February 2, 1973. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Helms. How could he be suspended in 1977 from a job he left three years earlier?

Here are the circumstances of his leaving in 1973 (largely for not playing ball with Nixon on Watergate) (from above link):

Immediately after Nixon's re-election in 1972, he called for all appointed officials in his administration to resign; Nixon here sought to gain more personal control over the federal government. Helms did not consider his position at CIA to be a political job, which was the traditional view within the Agency, and so did not resign as DCI. Previously, on election day Helms had lunch with General Alexander Haig, a top Nixon security advisor; Haig didn't know Nixon's mind on the future at CIA. Evidently neither did Henry Kissinger, Helms discovered later. On November 20, Helms came to Camp David to an interview with Nixon about what he thought was a "budgetary matter". Nixon's chief of staff, H. R. Haldeman also attended. Helms was then informed by Nixon that his services in the new administration would not be required.[299] On Helms' dismissal William Colby (DCI Sept. 1973 to Jan. 1976) later commented that "Dick Helms paid the price for that 'No' [to the White House over Watergate]."[300][301

I'm going to remove this, again because it is wrong.

I'm sorry that I failed to adequately explain my previous deletion, and I'm sure that all the concerned Wikipedia editors working on this article will agree that it should not contain obviously false claims.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.22.76.12 (talk • contribs) 18:06, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, you're right, he got a suspended sentence, he wasn't suspended from his job. However, throwing words around like libel usually end up with a block, see WP:NLT as it is "chilling". Doug Weller (talk) 18:32, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

The Corley Conspiracy?

Why the mention of "The Corley Conspiracy" under 'See also'? The linked article makes no mention of O'Brien.... Mazoola (talk) 15:42, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Mind Control victims are not "conspiracy theorists"

You need to stop calling trauma-based mind control victims "conspiracy theorists." Everyone with half a brain knows this is a psyops term. Talk about adding insult to injury. (Yes, I too am a victim/survior.) There was a Senate Hearing in 1977 on MKULTRA so hell yes, it is real. There was also a huge FOIA document dump on MKULTRA in 2016. The fact that no major media source has chosen to explore the depths of these new MKULTRA docs doesn't make it a "conspiracy theory." In fact, unless you want to expose yourself as a straight-out government psy-op, Wikipedia, maybe you should really do some soul searching on your use of the term "conspiracy theory" since you're also using it to describe legitimate crime victims including those being harmed by covert directed energy weapons use, of which there are many thousands if not millions. This is real life and our children's future rests on your ability to tell truth from dangerous psyops misinformation. What you say matters. Napooi (talk) 01:46, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not the place to right great wrongs. We reflect reliable sources, and do not publish original research, such as survivor testimony. If no major media sources have explored this, then Wikipedia is not likely to, either. Wikipedia has a mainstream bias, and this talk page isn't a productive place to challenge that. Grayfell (talk) 01:52, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Criticism section

Psyops counts on their ability to discredit evidence or those presenting evidence. Cathy has provided evidence. I'm not sure how, or if, you can cite youtube videos on YouTube but she has provided photographs of her vaginal mutilation. If someone says she provides no evidence, they are simply lying "these are not the droids you're looking for" style. Another type of corroboration is the account of Brice Taylor / Sue Ford, another victim/survivor of US government-sponsored trauma-based mind control and sexual abuse (sex slavery).Napooi (talk) 01:46, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

This would only belong with mainstream WP:SECONDARY coverage in proportion to due weight. Youtube is seldom usable as a source, and is not appropriate for these claims. Grayfell (talk) 01:55, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Criticism section removal

The once source actually linking Cathy O'Brien with supposed criticism does no such thing.

"Swedish scholar Mattias Gardell states that O'Brien's assertions are almost entirely unsupported by any evidence outside her testimony or the similarly unverified testimony of others"

He does not state any such thing. The one mention of O'Brien (pg 95) treats her testimony with a great deal of respect, in my opinion. From my read, I can find nothing to support the summary. Further, "almost entirely unsupported", even if that was his contention, is another way of saying that some evidence exists.

The remainder of the criticism section uses original research, does not use sources that refer to Cathy, and does not constitute criticism at all.

I wonder as well about the title. How is her testimony, the one thing she is known for, considered "theorizing"? It is certainly a good way to discredit a person, but is it supported in this case? What has she theorized about? I think Wikipedia should not be used to judge people, unless RS supports that. But we can't be doing it ourselves, per WP:RS, WP:OR, WP:BLP (aka, common decency). petrarchan47คุก 22:46, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

I think there are sufficient sources.[cathy o'brien conspiracy theory] Doug Weller talk 06:17, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

@Doug Weller:Your link(s) didn't make it into the post. —DIY Editor (talk) 06:55, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

@DIY Editor: damn, thought I'd fixed that before I saved. Anyway, it was just a quick GBooks search.[1] Doug Weller talk 08:01, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

It seems like conspiracy theorist is about the most accurate and still BLP-compliant description that could be used for her article since the name has to be disambiguated. —DIY Editor (talk) 08:12, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

How about "(former mind-controlled sex slave)"? –Roy McCoy (talk) 14:18, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

I assume this is a joke.Slatersteven (talk) 14:43, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Not really, but neither was it a serious proposal, and something funny did happen. I've had her and her husband's Trance Formation of America for a while, but just started reading it last night. I consequently went to her website today and read, in a memorial to her deceased husband, "On September 6, 2017, the world lost an infamous hero." This obviously wasn't what was intended, so I submitted the contact form pointing this sentence out and suggesting the phrase be changed to "the world lost a hero". To my surprise I soon afterwards heard back from Ms. O'Brien herself, who told me she couldn't find the problematic phrase. I then looked at the page again, saw that the change had been made, and figured O'Brien had found the sentence in the meantime and corrected it. She nonetheless maintained in a following mail that she hadn't. Whoa! I said that somebody had access to her website and had changed it today, then, and she said she didn't doubt it, that she'd had a lot of bizarre things happen techwise as pertains to altered info. I finally came to suspect, however, that she still had her and her husband's administrative assistant Shaela, the author of the eulogy, and that Shaela had seen my message and made the correction without notifying O'Brien or myself. This seems more plausible than that the CIA or whoever intercepted the message and playfully made the correction themselves, but I don't know. –Roy McCoy (talk) 00:15, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

P.S. Ms. O'Brien has confirmed this suspicion via email, thanking me for my astute insight and brilliant observation. She comments as well that national security is invoked (as it was in her court case) on "secrets" and not "theories". There is no general consensus on "conspiracy theorist" here, and something should eventually be done about this. –Roy McCoy (talk) 01:51, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

”There is no general consensus on "conspiracy theorist" here” You need to read the article. All of our high quality academic sources explicitly call O’Brien’s claims conspiracy theories. And citing reliable sources is a core policy of the encyclopedia. - LuckyLouie (talk) 03:15, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Here's a list of the credible evidence for the existence of mind control:

I didn't miss any. The gibberment tried to do it and failed. You could write that down to agency incompetence, but since everyone claiming mind control seems int he end to tiurn out to be mad, I favour Occam's Razor. There's no remotely plausible mechanism by which it could work and no remotely credible evidence it does, so it probably doesn't. Guy (Help!) 13:18, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

If the criticism cited to Mattias Gardell was in the source, I couldn't find it, so I removed it. However I have added David G. Robertson (who makes the same points) and expanded Barkun a bit. I noticed "Project Monarch" is not mentioned at all in "The Search for the 'Manchurian Candidate" by John D. Marks, so I removed that as well. And "Operation Mind Control" by Walter Bowart was also removed as hopelessly WP:PROFRINGE: a sample of his writings can be found here. - LuckyLouie (talk) 01:31, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Good work, thanks. Guy (Help!) 09:58, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

I think it isn't appropriate to have separate sections for things like "holograms", "multiple personality", and "child abuse", which will likely never be expanded. Our best reliable sources treat her work as one unified conspiracy narrative. Sources also focus on criticism of the narrative, so it makes sense that criticism is integrated rather than ghettoized, which I did. - LuckyLouie (talk) 00:53, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

The article is now greatly improved: tighter and with much less he-said-she-said type nonsense. Guy (Help!) 11:30, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Clinton accusations

https://books.google.ca/books?id=LNMECwAAQBAJ&pg=PA535 2015 book attributes 2 quotes to her. Google Books does not allow any online previews of Trance Formation, is anyone able to confirm whether or not they appear in the 1995 book by O'Brien and if so, on what pages? ScratchMarshall (talk) 20:34, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

I have a PDF copy of the book. There are 10 pages that reference the Clintons. Pgs 109, 154, 155,156, 157, 158, 162, 163, 172, and 174. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:282:100:9450:23:7D34:A40E:7180 (talk) 21:38, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

@ScratchMarshall: It's interesting that no one has answered this question though it was posted nearly three years ago. It's also surprising that whoever finally replied in August of this year neither confirmed nor disconfirmed the quotes despite having access to the book. The answer is that yes, both appear in the book as quoted: the first ("My personal sexual experience with [Bill] Clinton was limited, but I had witnessed him engaged in homosexual activity during an orgy [at Swiss Villa]") on page 154 (12th edition), and the second ("Hillary Clinton is the only female to become sexually aroused at the sight of my mutilated vagina") on page 156. –Roy McCoy (talk) 16:46, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

What is this being used for?Slatersteven (talk) 16:50, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Or, what was it going to be used for three years ago. I assume you're directing the question to ScratchMarshall. –Roy McCoy (talk) 17:41, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

As you responded I assumed you had some idea. I assume you have a reason for thinking this question is important?Slatersteven (talk) 18:31, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

@Slatersteven: You assumed and assume wrong. I was just going down the page trying not to miss anything, saw an unanswered question and answered it. If you have a Wikipedia policy against that, go ahead and cite it. –Roy McCoy (talk) 01:57, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Title not consistent with other Public Figures

I'm listening to a podcast by this woman, so I looked her up and saw the ridiculous title. I looked up Alex Jones and he doesn't have a name/subtitle as a title just his name. I've never moved an article before but the bias in the Title needs to be removed. Zerostatetechnologies (talk) 14:43, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Re: the "Conspiracy theorist" parenthetical in article title, it looks like the parenthetical was originally an attempt to disambiguate from other Cathy O'Briens. Is it still necessary? Should it be removed? What do editors think? Discuss. - LuckyLouie (talk) 16:59, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Should probably stay, there is a Cathy O'Brien (athlete). —DIYeditor (talk) 19:15, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

I'm not expert at WP's disambiguation policy, but there are quite a number of Alex Joneses. Not sure how the US-based conspiracy theorist was chosen to be the primary title target while all others deserve parenthetical IDs. Maybe notability decides it? Not sure, but if so, this "Cathy O'Brien" may not be the #1 most notable of all individuals bearing the same or closely similar name. - LuckyLouie (talk) 20:11, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Generally WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is applied. It does appear that this Cathy O'Brien is the one people would be looking for and the disambiguation could be moved to Cathy O'Brien (disambiguation). You should do a proposed move per instructions for that if you want to make such a move. —DIYeditor (talk) 20:37, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Well I have heard of none of them. So i am not sure who is the least well known.Slatersteven (talk) 15:54, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you DIYeditor for the advice. Since this has not been done yet, and I came to the discussion page for the same reason, I will attempt it. Last I checked, WP refers to the parenthetical title "CT" as a derogatory term. People can decide from the facts in the article if they want to view a person that way.4ProfDigory (talk) 02:24, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

I tried it, but I don't have enough weight yet it appears. (No "More" drop-down.)4ProfDigory (talk) 02:31, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

People with first-hand accounts of their lives should not be categorizes as conspiracy theorists. It was suggested that this title remain to differentiate from an athlete by the same name. I suggest that the athlete's page contain "athlete" in the title, and that "conspiracy theorist" be removed from this woman's page. Nobody has proven her account inaccurate (beyond reasonable doubt), have they? Alex Jones, the ultimate conspiracy theorist is a totally different kind of person, yet the one that should be given the benefit of the doubt (between the two) get the label that discredits the person. Suspicious WP. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:282:100:9450:23:7D34:A40E:7180 (talk) 21:47, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Well given she has given inconsistent accounts, yes they have disproved them, as they all cannot be true.Slatersteven (talk) 22:00, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Page moves should not be made without consent.Slatersteven (talk) 14:47, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Slatersteven: But the change had been discussed and consent had been given. The only editor other than yourself to express any reservation was DIYeditor, who changed his mind and wound up saying: "You should do a proposed move per instructions for that if you want to make such a move." 4ProfDigory, with this approval and an apparent consensus, would have done so but was technically unable.

This is probably the point where I should pull in what I found on this before but didn't post. Out of 103 first-page Google finds on "Cathy O'Brien" (100 + 3 videos), 47 were the author/speaker and 56 were a smathering of other people, with 9 obituaries, 2 murder victims, a couple of teachers and nurses, a missionary, a couple of accountants, a realtor, an unsuccessful singer or two, somebody with an Instagram account, and a couple of others. There was more than one athlete, with seven finds on the one with the Wikipedia article. This is already an almost seven-to-one preponderance for the author/speaker, but I suspect the find results were loaded because when I did the same search with DuckDuckGo, only 4 of the 30 finds (I couldn't get more than 30) dealt with anyone else, and none of them with the WP athlete (another murder victim, an actress Katy, Spokeo phone numbers, and a Framingham MA therapist). It's the same with all but 5 of the first 50 Bing finds, where there are one find on the WP athlete, the name on Facebook, a murder victim (again), a one-time character on The Big Bang Theory, and the Katy actress. I consider this sufficient for WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. –Roy McCoy (talk) 19:47, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

I should have said consensus, which there was not. And the move was not done via the right method (and that is not saying "I do not oppose" it's saying "ask". Now we are discussing this below, so we do not have two threads on the same topic.Slatersteven (talk) 19:52, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Slatersteven: Editors don't have to wait for you to "ask" them to do something. Consent may not be absolutely equivalent to consensus, but it's close enough, as consensus may be assumed in the absence of opposition. There was no opposition to moving the page six months ago, whereas there is opposition to leaving "conspiracy theorist" now; so one thing for sure is that you don't have consensus for that. –Roy McCoy (talk) 02:09, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Roy McCoy, Without a consensus to move the page will stay where it is. You can read about the process used to demonstrate such a consensus at Wikipedia:Requested_moves#Requesting_controversial_and_potentially_controversial_moves. MrOllie (talk) 02:45, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

@MrOllie: I wasn't aware of this and have now read the article, thanks. It reminded me of something I might have had to read for a university course, that the more I studied it the better I would understand and the better grade I would get. I wouldn't get the top mark on this now, but I do get the general idea. The problem is that this procedure existed when Sol1 made the potentially controversial move (one with which "someone could reasonably disagree") in June 2015. I previously commented that Sol1 made the move without any previous discussion on the talk page, and now I see that e ("they") failed to observe the correct procedure otherwise. Moreover, I now note that the stated rationale for the move in the edit summary was that Ms O'Brien was "not a primary subject", which has now been demonstrated not to be the case if it wasn't already sufficiently clear then. The appropriate point to have objected, we will agree, would have been in June 2015, but the fact that a challenge was not brought at that time (as it should have been – why just me now?) did not legitimize the unauthorized change or establish a consensus for it.

I could hardly have failed to notice, however, the presence of a dedicated team of entities here intent on maintaining Ms. O'Brien's identification as a "conspiracy theorist". She may have had some defenders here from time to time, but they seem to have vanished and there would be little if any sense in my continuing a lone attempt to buck the RS-arguing defamers. I wrote to her on Sunday: Unfortunately, I will probably turn out to be one of the many people who haven't been able to help you. There is no substantial change I can make to the Wikipedia article that would not be immediately reverted by another editor, who would subsequently be supported by an administrator threatening me with being blocked if I contested the reversion – or perhaps, at this point, simply blocking me outright. I don't like simply walking away from this, but I don't like wrangling in vain either. This might be an appropriate occasion for an RFC as someone suggested, but I'm not familiar with this procedure, have no experience with it, and will likely not explore the possibility of such a procedure further. Otherwise all I can do is protest, which I have done. –Roy McCoy (talk) 18:23, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

And there was no consensus for moving it from "conspiracy theorist", so it was reverted back to the last consensus version. Which is the correct procedure you were asked to follow, wp:brd.Slatersteven (talk) 10:27, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

My advice was incorrect, its not an RFC you want to read WP:MOVE. And make the request here WP:RM.Slatersteven (talk) 18:38, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

@Slatersteven: Okay, thanks. It's a simple procedure and I'm experienced with half of it, but we've had enough of this at least for the time being. –Roy McCoy (talk) 18:54, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

No consensus for Page move

Blocked indefinitely. Guy Macon (talk) 09:50, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I'm not sure why page moves are being made without consensus [2]. There is plenty of prior discussion on this Talk page regarding why "conspiracy theorist" is being used appropriately and the high quality academic sources that support its use. However, we can have that discussion all over again here if need be. - LuckyLouie (talk) 15:06, 10 December 2020 (UTC) @LuckyLouie: As I've stated before, there is no general consensus here for "conspiracy theorist", so it enjoys – or should enjoy – no particularly ironclad status. You've insisted on it repeatedly for years, but with opposition as well as support. You yourself suggested removing the parenthetical distinction at one point,[3] and it was you who at another point termed Ms. O'Brien as "an American author and speaker" rather than as a conspiracy theorist.[4] I defend the move, which I made immediately following and prompted by an anonymous edit that "[r]emoved the CIA snarl word for more objective reading". I think that's an appropriate characterization of "conspiracy theorist", a boring and embarrassingly hackneyed phrase that one sees everywhere in Wikipedia whenever anyone departing from the official narrative is concerned. Your argument is that certain sources call these figures conspiracy theorists and so Wikipedia shall too. That's fine, but then Wikipedia's reputation falls with that of the "reliable sources" – as it has. True, one still has some people following the official narrative even when it flies out the window, but there are also a lot of people who aren't being fooled, and it isn't yet clear whether truth or falsehood is ultimately going to prevail. I'll grant, though, that falsehood is doing very well at the present time. Unlike Ms. O'Brien's self-published testimony, it has a lot of money behind it. –Roy McCoy (talk) 04:13, 15 December 2020 (UTC) Reliable sources disagree with you about the use and meaningfulness of the word "conspiracy theorist". Since Wikipedia is based on reliable sources and not on the uninformed opinion of a random guy on the internet, or even several other random people on the internet who tried the same thing before, we will keep the existing wording. Thank you for the rant, but we didn't need one more of those. --Hob Gadling (talk) 08:23, 15 December 2020 (UTC) That is why we have a discussion rather than unilateral moves. Now if you want an RFC on this launch one and lets see how it goes.Slatersteven (talk) 11:24, 15 December 2020 (UTC) @Roy McCoy. Regarding the diffs [5][6]: the first is only a general call for editorial opinions and the second is just a copyedit intended to revert WP:FRINGE additions and unexplained content removal. My apologies if they gave you the impression that I opposed using the term "conspiracy theorist". - LuckyLouie (talk) 14:00, 15 December 2020 (UTC) @LuckyLouie: As to the first of your cited edits, you did indeed call for editorial opinions, but questioning the necessity of the disambiguating parenthesis and suggesting it be removed. As to the second, I notice you edited your initial claim that you were only reverting content removal. You had added "author and speaker" as I said, which had nothing to do with reverting a WP:FRINGE addition. You say, furthermore, that I should read the article; what you mean, I think, is I should check the references, which I've already done at least in the case of Barcun. Rather than doing further research on which eminent scholar or scholars has asserted that Ms. O'Brien is a conspiracy theorist, I'm going to read the rest of her book and say nothing else here for the time being, unless perhaps someone has something more interesting to offer than that Cathy O'Brien is a conspiracy theorist because some high-quality source says so. Speaking of sources, Wikipedia's are often duplicitous and unreliable, so one can keep regurgitating the RS policy till the cows come home, and it will still fall flat with anyone aware of the dubiousness of the WP-approved sources and of the frequent value and acceptable quality of the disapproved – for example the Gateway Pundit on the 2020 Election. The graphic at Investment Watch provides a picture of the ideologically motivated division of sources and "explains a lot of the bias". If the purpose of Wikipedia is to serve as a propaganda rag, the childish "conspiracy theorist!" finger-pointing/name-calling may make some sense. Otherwise I'd say that what the encyclopedia actually needs, Hob Gadling, is fewer tired reiterations of the policy of aping often-discreditable sources. I think it could use less of that even if propagandizing is the purpose, since the RS policy perhaps shouldn't be over-advertised given current public disillusionment with "the lying media" – a phrase today yielding over a million estimated Google finds. Since the subtopic here is page-move consensus, we can look at the history of the article in this regard. It was initiated on 17 February 2006 as "Cathy O'Brien", who was, "with Mark Phillips, the author of TranceFormation of America and Access Denied: For Reasons of National Security". I'd say WP had it right the first time, but in any event "Cathy O'Brien" apparently stood for over nine years until June 2015, indicating a consensus on that title at least during the indicated period. There was no consensus for the change to "(conspiracy theorist)", which Sol1 made without any previous discussion on the talk page. This was a more controversial change than its recent reversion, since – aside from the clear inappropriateness of the tag (you can call her a madwoman if you like, but not a "theorist") – O'Brien is in fact a primary subject in the same way as the cited example Alex Jones. I did a couple of searches confirming this and even took notes, but I don't feel like going into it now and have no desire to initiate an RFC at this point. Like I said, I'm going to finish reading the book. –Roy McCoy (talk) 18:31, 15 December 2020 (UTC) Please read wp:not and wp:npa. Arguements that rely in anything in wp:NOTDUMB are going to fall flat. Also read wp:primary, you do not get to tell other editors what they think, or meant.Slatersteven (talk) 11:48, 16 December 2020 (UTC) @Slatersteven: I will read or reread these and perhaps comment later. I don't recall that I made any arguement relying in anything. What I was saying, as I recall, was that Wikipedia's arguement was falling flat. As for now, I'm reading the book rather than jawing about it or insulting its author. –Roy McCoy (talk) 14:28, 16 December 2020 (UTC) Yes, that is kind of what people are saying, none of your arguments are based upon our policies. Again, Slatersteven?, I don't recall having actually presented any arguments. I made a few observations – such as that O'Brien wasn't a conspiracy theorist and that there wasn't any genuine consensus for that title – and said I was going to read her TRANCE book, which I have now done. I was going to proceed with her second book Access Denied and bought it on Kindle, but rather than taking up where the first left off it was retelling the same story, so I didn't continue. I also said I would read or reread the WP articles proposed, and I've had a look at them; but they were so wide-ranging that I couldn't tell what you meant. You told me I couldn't tell other editors what they meant, so I suppose it's a good thing I didn't try. If you could be more specific, I'd be happy to consider your points. A boss of mine used to say, "There's always room for improvement." This is true in the case of anything that isn't perfect, and I doubt many would maintain that this article is perfect. I'm unable to perfect it, but I can brush it up a little and make a few suggestions. If some of these are critical, it might be that criticism is justified. –Roy McCoy (talk) 02:47, 22 December 2020 (UTC) I agree you have not presented any arguments. Not real ones anyway. Since in Wikipedia, edits are based on reasoning, and you don't have any, we are finished here, right? --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:04, 22 December 2020 (UTC) @Hob Gadling: Saying I don't have any reasoning is an insult, but I won't reply in kind and have no desire to argue with you, so if you're done that's fine with me. What I have been consistently hearing, both here and elsewhere, is that Wikipedia edits are based not on reasoning but on purportedly reliable sources. Reasoning in fact appears to be distinctly unwelcome. –Roy McCoy (talk) 02:56, 23 December 2020 (UTC) Of course reasoning is important! Reasoning about how best to use the reliable sources we have, reasoning about which sources are reliable according to the rules, reasoning on what exactly to quote and what not in order to make the article as good as possible. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:03, 23 December 2020 (UTC) If the purportedly reliable sources are partisan, your comment is a more a defense of partisanship than a legitimate claim to rationality. I won't have anything further to say to you on this. –Roy McCoy (talk) 14:17, 23 December 2020 (UTC) If they are partisan enough to become unreliable, you can report them on WP:RSP. If they stay reliable, there is no problem. So, no, since this is the first time I have mentioned partisanship, no comment of mine up till now was a defense of partisanship. --Hob Gadling (talk) 14:53, 23 December 2020 (UTC) O'Brien wasn't a conspiracy theorist, you [Roy McCoy] say? Have you read her web page? In the book Trance Formation of America[7] O'Brien asserts that: Jim Jones, Sirhan Sirhan, John Hinkley, and Lee Harvey Oswald all commuted their crimes because of government mind control. As a as a toddler, she was routinely prostituted to "a Senator, local mobsters and Masons, relatives, Satanists, strangers, and police officers". She was raped by Hillary Clinton. Dick Cheney engaged in human hunting, hunting her with men and dogs. Country music singer and sausage king Jimmy Dean kept some of these government mind-controlled slaves. George H. W. Bush "activated a hologram of the lizard-like 'alien' which provided the illusion of Bush transforming like a chameleon before my eyes" -- long before the technology she describes was possible.. Some quotes: "My owner in MK Ultra torturous mind control was US Senator Robert C. Byrd, who planted his corrupt roots deep in US politics for over 50 years. He even had an office in the FBI building to utilize the agency as a catch net operation for human trafficking 'runaway slaves'. Byrd would assure his cohorts in pedophilia, mind control, and human trafficking, 'Good people do not think to look for this kind of criminal activity.' This criminal activity has been hiding in plain sight ever since Project Paperclip imported Nazi scientists into the US in the wake of WWII. By the time George Bush, Sr. took office as President, he brazenly told us he was implementing what Hitler and he termed the New World Order." "[Senator] Byrd adjusted his use of programming themes to include the mirror-reversal, interdimensional, Air-Water mind-control theme used on me by NASA and the Jesuits. I often saw dolphins playing in the ocean while being transported from port to port via the Cruise ships, but the popular "whales and dolphins" mind-control theme was avoided in favor of a theme more suitable to my experience-that of the Sea-Bird-Robert C. (Sea) Byrd. He told me, 'Atlantis has long been the epicenter of alien activity. The path is so well warn that there are holes in the fabric of time and space whereby airplanes and ships, even people, timelessly seemingly disappear, transformed into another dimension alien to this world. Likewise, we (aliens) came in, entering through the mirror reflection of the hole in the fabric of space, the deep blue sea. Some of us entered Earth's plane as whales and dolphins'." --Guy Macon (talk) 07:11, 22 December 2020 (UTC) @Guy Macon: Not wasn't, isn't – she's still alive. I've read her book, and it's not as if I don't have my own problems with it. I wrote her a couple of days ago: Reading you is a bizarre, unsettling experience, particularly because on the one hand you seem credible, while on the other some of your stories seem too fantastic to be true. So I don't need to be persuaded that some of her tales seem incredible, but I still maintain that she isn't a conspiracy theorist. Petrarchan47 put it as well as I can: How is her testimony, the one thing she is known for, considered "theorizing"? It is certainly a good way to discredit a person, but is it supported in this case? What has she theorized about? "Conspiracy theorist" is a propagandistic abuse of the language, whether universally recognized as such or not. As for the problem of incredibility, I feel I've resolved that to some extent over the last couple of days. I don't think she could make all these things up, and I believe many of them can be and already have been verified. (This relates directly to the article, which asserts otherwise.) But let's be blunt and say, for the purpose of discussion, that she's crazy. If that's so, we may then ask why. Was she simply born that way, or was it for some other reason? If for some other reason, was it not perhaps because she was subjected to extreme abuse, as she testifies? And if she was subjected to extreme abuse, by whom? Who would be more suspect than her father and certain men of his acquaintance? And if it was her father and these men, doesn't that confirm a significant part of her story? I'll grant that the holograms may have been a delusion; they impressed me as such when I came across them. I don't think it's fair, however, that precisely the most dubious part of the book should be uniquely singled out for mention, while assertions are made that none of the rest of her narrative has any validity. Please don't come back to me about secondary sources at this point, thanks. And Slatersteven, I didn't misquote LuckyLouie or mischaracterize what he wrote, whether he later walked it back or not. If anyone's misquoting and mischaracterizing it's you, with your "AHH but you said you supported me here". LuckyLouie had never heard of me when he made his earlier statements and posed his questions. –Roy McCoy (talk) 04:01, 23 December 2020 (UTC) As to what I meant by "telling other users what they think". If you say to a user "AHH but you said you supported me here" and they say "no I did not", they did not support you.Slatersteven (talk) 10:29, 22 December 2020 (UTC) Slatersteven, it's interesting that User:Roy McCoy is using an article by a Wikipedia editor on the conspiracy theory Investment Watch blog. Eg a covid conspiracy theory[8], a Trump one[9] etc. Doug Weller talk 16:32, 22 December 2020 (UTC) @Doug Weller: What are you talking about? I hadn't seen these two articles and have nothing to do with them. –Roy McCoy (talk) 18:11, 22 December 2020 (UTC) Roy McCoy, You linked to Investment Watch above. You probably should have checked to see if they routinely publish nonsense before citing them in an argument. MrOllie (talk) 18:13, 22 December 2020 (UTC) Unbelievable. Does anyone actually contest the graphic? If so, please describe the notable discrepancies between it and the table it's based on at WP:RSPSOURCES. –Roy McCoy (talk) 18:39, 22 December 2020 (UTC) Not the proper place for such a discussion, take this to wp:rsn if you want to talk about reliability of sources. And read wp:talk.Slatersteven (talk) 18:45, 22 December 2020 (UTC) @Roy McCoy. The Investment Watch graphic is accurate insofar as listing RS according to Wikipedia, but utter nonsense is added to the list, like labeling reliable sources as "corporate MSM" and "pro war media" etc. and bizarre commentary like "Since pro-war sources and corporate MSM are preferred, a lot of bias on Wikipedia comes from its biased sources and biased editors." - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:47, 22 December 2020 (UTC) Thank you, LuckyLouie, though I might remark that I don't find the IWB characterizations to be either nonsensical or bizarre. I didn't bring up the graphic, Slatersteven, and I know what a talk page is. –Roy McCoy (talk) 19:18, 22 December 2020 (UTC) We have policies, our edits (and articles) are based upon those policies. Any argument not based upon those policies is invlaid. Any argument based upon "I do not care about your policies" is disrputive.Slatersteven (talk) 14:58, 23 December 2020 (UTC) Don't put words in my mouth. And use a spell checker if you need one. –Roy McCoy (talk) 15:07, 23 December 2020 (UTC) " Please don't come back to me about secondary sources at this point, thanks." read wp:RS, secondary sources are what we use.Slatersteven (talk) 15:34, 23 December 2020 (UTC) I'm already acquainted with WP:RS and the other things you keep throwing at me, Slatersteven. Will you please put a lid on it? I wrote, following the sentence you've now quoted and rudely ignored, "We'll get to those later." I deleted this because I didn't consider it to be necessary, but perhaps it was. –Roy McCoy (talk) 16:02, 23 December 2020 (UTC) This needs closing, there are no policy based arguments being made, just OR assertions.Slatersteven (talk) 16:07, 23 December 2020 (UTC) Roy McCoy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been blocked indefinitely from editing for disruptive editing. See Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive277#Roy McCoy.

Mkultra project is NOT "Conspiracy"

Cathy o'Brien wrote "transformation of america" to help those suffering the long term effects (which r lifelong & the military knows this as they participated in the torture of innocent children). Mkultra falls under crimes against humanity. I've research the entire correct psychological field for nearly 3 decades. The veil of caring is widely used in our asleep general public. Cathy o'Brien provided tons of info on what happened to her & continues to happen in the u.s. Those who call her a liar are the ones involved as they are paid to lie. (Cia) =criminals in action. Out to harm the hard working public. Human trafficking widely out of control due to gov.involvement. Speak that Truth (talk) 14:15, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Mkultra project may not be a "Conspiracy theory", her participation in it is.Slatersteven (talk) 15:03, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 October 2021

All of my edits along with scientific links have been completely deleted. I have reentered it. If statements are clear and there are scientific links attached to it that prove it no one shall be allowed to delete it. It seems that this page is there onky to discredit Ms O'Brein without a proper objective perspective. As there are scholars against Ms O'Brein, there is also fully recorded evidence of unethical experiments that have left children or vulnerable adults completely damaged or dead. I study Neuroscience myself, this is part an objective approach. Any form of journalism should at least try not to be biased 92.9.160.169 (talk) 21:26, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

This is an article about Cathy O'Brien. If you want to write about her, you have to use sources that are directly about her. You can't use unrelated sources about general subjects to make claims about her in specific, that is called synthesis here and it is expressly forbidden by Wikipedia's policies. - MrOllie (talk) 21:47, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Also wp:v and wp:or are worth your time to read.Slatersteven (talk) 08:57, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Content removal discussion

Good evening, so I noticed that @TruthTellerK11 is removing the words 'conspiracy theorist' from the article claiming there are no sources. A page protection request was filled but we need to talk about this. ToadetteEdit ^(chat)/_(logs) 15:29, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, but it is not being discussed just edit warred back out. Its is down to them to make a case. Slatersteven (talk) 15:31, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Your entire Wikipage on Cathy O'Brian is baseless. Based on a matter of opinion of flimsy research and only ONE scholar based on his opinion and degree from Berkley. It's laughable... In current Documentaries, Whistleblowers, and Tech Companies releasing information of which (All will be cited for accuracy)that would show otherwise, Cathy's accounts to be true. You must release this page of your false, bias, narrative. TruthTellerK11 (talk) 15:40, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Please read wp:soap and wp:rs. DO you have sources for your claim? Slatersteven (talk) 15:42, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Slater did you not just read what I wrote. I cited sources in my edits that you took down. Okay I see what you are doing. Im not longer having this conversation with someone who acts like a child. Goodbye TruthTellerK11 (talk) 15:54, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I read it, I do not see one source (wp:rs). Perhaps you would post it here, I may have missed it. Slatersteven (talk) 15:58, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Slater- Please cite ever Scholar besides one. Were they with Cathy? Do they have credible evidence of their claims? TruthTellerK11 (talk) 16:14, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

We Do Hans Bertil Mattias Gardell (born 10 August 1959) is a Swedish historian and scholar of comparative religion, Mary de Young is a retired professor of sociology formerly at Grand Valley State University, Michael Barkun Professor Emeritus, Political Science Department. Now your turn to back up your claim you provided sources. Slatersteven (talk) 16:19, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Okay those are names, But what are their claims that Cathy's accounts aren't true? TruthTellerK11 (talk) 02:24, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

It is consensus in science that "memories" that have been "recovered" under hypnosis are actually fantasies. See Recovered-memory therapy. See also WP:FRINGE. --Hob Gadling (talk) 08:02, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Read what they are cited for. Slatersteven (talk) 10:28, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Hob Gadling is outdated. There are many new articles and medical journals that state otherwise. You have a completely bias narrative and Im not sure what sadistic person such as yourself is holding onto outdated information to prove your point.

Hypnosis, Memory and the Brain - Scientific American TruthTellerK11 (talk) 20:28, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Furthermore Please reference most current psychology to show you have any legs to stand on. May I remind you that Political science and sociology is not Neuroscience and psychology, Thanks. TruthTellerK11 (talk) 20:41, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Forgive me, I looked at the Scientific American article but I was unable to find where it supports George H. W. Bush's ability to project an image of a lizard person. MrOllie (talk) 20:44, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Please Refer to Dr. Robert Duncan for his 20+ years and whistleblower for these technologies that have been in development since Cathy's accounts. Dr. Steve Hoffman on Brian Computer Interface. Mr. Ollie welcome to the conversation. I didn't realize it was recess for you all. George H.W.Bush is not the one who projected this imagery. Could you cite where it says it was him in control of this advanced technology being tested on Mrs. O'brien? Please use citing of your repsonse. K (talk) 21:19, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

That's exactly what she wrote in her book: Claiming to me to be an alien himself, Bush apparently activated a hologram of the lizard-like "alien" which provided the illusion of Bush transforming like a chameleon before my eyes. I can't find any reliable sources by a 'Robert Duncan' that explains this. To be clear, we cannot change this article without very strong sources, and vague handwaves at people no one's ever heard of or self published writings are not remotely the required sourcing. MrOllie (talk) 21:28, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Im here to cite and fix this article. Slater's findings are bias and outdated or I will be reporting you both for internet bullying of Cathy O'brien. TruthTellerK11 (talk) 20:44, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

You should go ahead and do that, because you have presented nothing like the sourcing we would require to change this article in the way you seem to require. MrOllie (talk) 21:30, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

PP

I have requested PP, enough is enough. Slatersteven (talk) 14:47, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

why did we get rid of all the previous correspondence on the talk page for this article?

I was trying to add to the talk page and realized there wasn't a talk page but on further investigation I realized the talk page has been archived. Why is this and how can we bring it back? Why does it seem Wikipedia is going to extensive lengths to suppres? B1blazin (talk) 06:05, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Furthermore I don't understand as it seems users apparently requested for post protection. Can somebody please explain the situation to me.Thank you. B1blazin (talk) 06:16, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Archiving happens because old discussions are often obsolete and clutter up the page. Bringing archived contributions back does not seem to make any sense.

I don't know what you mean by users apparently requested for post protection. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:43, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Labeling as conspiracy theorist

I personally feel labeling somebody as a conspiracy theorist is not only biased but is subjective teaching.

What if we had a page on Wikipedia called Joe biden (the pedophile) or Trump (the racist). In either example there has not been substantial proof as a consensus. Therefore the article written remains subjective & biased. It casts a narrative instead of inform which is the purpose of the platform. B1blazin (talk) 06:15, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is supposed to be neither based on your personal feelings, nor on your opinion on what constitutes "substantial proof". Read WP:RS to find out what it is based on. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:40, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Looking at your other edits you seem to misunderstand Wikipedia in a substantive way. You clearly don't like it calling things conspiracy theories. or that Project Veritas has been accused of producing deceptively edited videos, although it clear does. You aren't going to be happy here and frankly you're wasting your time and that of others. Doug Weller talk 08:34, 1 April 2024 (UTC)