Talk:Catch and release
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POV
editThis seems heavily tilted in favor of catch-and-release fishing. The addition of arguments against it is needed. Musteval 00:09, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
I've expanded this article quite a bit and I believe it's near to NPOV. Comments? 209.105.198.70 02:30, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
- I will remove the NPOV tag within a few days if there are no objections in further discussion. Dave 05:46, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
- I removed the POV check tag just now. Dave 23:11, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Mortality
editThe statement made that "A number of scientific studies have shown extremely high survival rates (95%+)[citation needed] for released fish..." seems not to be supported by research done in this area. A review article by S.J. Casselman in July 2005 presents this table based on catch-and-release studies:
Species N Days %Mortality Reference --------------------------------------------------------------- Blue catfish 52 3 5.1 Muoneke, 1993 Channel catfish 214 3 19 Ott and Storey, 1993 Channel catfish 704 6 33 Rutledge, 1975 Channel catfish 14 <1 0 Tilyou and Hoenke, 1992 Flathead catfish 52 3 11.5 Muoneke, 1993 Yellow bullhead 20 <1 0 Tilyou and Hoenke, 1992 Muskellunge 3 5 30 Beggs et al., 1980 Northern pike 242 5-16 0-4.8 Burkholder, 1992 Northern pike 94 4-10 6.4 Falk and Gilman, 1975 Northern pike 185 2 1-33 Dubois et al., 1994 Tiger muskellunge 217 1 9.7 Newman and Storck, 1986 Artic grayling 180 2 0.6 Clark, 1991 Artic grayling 158 4-10 5.1 Falk and Gilman, 1975 Atlantic salmon 300 10-14 0.3-5.7 Warner, 1976 Atlantic salmon 149 5 13 Warner, 1978 Atlantic salmon 177 2-5 4-35 Warner and Johnson, 1978 Atlantic salmon 1221 3-14 5.1 Warner, 1979 Atlantic salmon 20 0 Booth et al., 1994 Brook trout 550 7-10 1-57 Shetter and Allison, 1955 Brook trout 806 1 2.6 Shetter and Allison, 1958 Brook trout 630 2 4.3 Nuhfer and Alexander, 1992 Brown trout 490 14 13.5 Hulbert and Engstrom-Heg, 1980 Brown trout 107 1 0.9 Shetter and Allison, 1958 Brown trout 197 0-28 Shetter and Allison, 1955 Brown trout 215 10 3-7 Barwick, 1985 Chinook salmon 888 4-6 22.1 Wertheimer et al., 1989 Chinook salmon 506 5 21-25 Wertheimer, 1988 Chinook salmon 100 1-5 10 Bendock and Alexandersdotitir, 1991 Chinook salmon 245 5 6-11 Bendock and Alexandersdotitir, 1991 Chinook salmon 3618 11.8 Butler and Loeffel, 1972 Chinook salmon 66 2 9.1 Natural Research Consultants, 1989 Coho salmon 85 35 42-55 Milne and Ball, 1956 Coho salmon 147 2 6.8 Natural Research Consultants, 1989 Coho salmon 4861 18.4 Butler and Loeffel, 1972 Coho salmon 384 69.3 Vincent-Lang et al., 1993 Cutthroat trout 652 30 5.11-5.5 Marnell and Hunsaker, 1970 Cutthroat trout 690 30 3.8 Dotson, 1982 Cutthroat trout 509 10 5-73 Hunsaker et al., 1970 Cutthroat trout 72698 0.3 Schill et al., 1986 Cutthroat trout 578 4 1.37-48.5 Titus and Vanicek, 1988 Lake trout 129 4-10 6.98 Falk et al., 1974 Lake trout 67 2 14.9 Loftus et al., 1988 Lake trout 50 2 10 Dextrase and Ball, 1991 Rainbow trout 100 120 95 Mason and Hunt, 1967 Rainbow trout 1000 3 1-10 Klein, 1965 Rainbow trout 159 11-35 Shetter and Allison, 1955 Rainbow trout 300 120 34.5-82 Mason and Hunt, 1967 Rainbow trout 38 10 5-39 Barwick, 1985 Rainbow trout 574 2 5.7-36 Stringer, 1967 Rainbow trout 65 1-2 20 Faccin, 1983 Rainbow trout 346 1 5.2 Shetter and Allison, 1958 Rainbow trout 900 28 2.1 Jenkins, 2003 Rainbow trout 281 29-34 16 Schill, 1996 Striped bass 576 3 1.87-70.39 May, 1990 Striped bass 307 3 38.1 Hysmith et al., 1992 Striped bass 113 3 0-69 Childress, 1989a Striped bass 464 14 16-17 Harrel, 1988 Striped bass 215 30-40 15-29 Diodati, 1991 Striped bass 89 >3 14-67 Bettoli and Osborne, 1998 Striped bass 153 3 6.4 Nelson, 1998 Palmetto bass 89 3 1-29 Childress, 1989a White bass 122 3 0.8 Childress, 1989a Yellow bass 5 <1 60 Tilyou and Hoenke, 1992 Black sea bass 64 2 4.7 Bugley and Shepherd, 1991 Crappie 15 <1 0 Tilyou and Hoenke, 1992 Black crappie 202 <1 19-77 Childress, 1989b White crappie 226 6-11 3 Hubbard and Miranda, 1991 White crappie 69 18 29 Childress, 1989b White crappie 43 3 9.3 Muoneke, 1992a White crappie 13 <504 15.4 Colvin, 1991 Bluegill 170 3 1.1-25.3 Muoneke, 1992b Bluegill 210 3 0-18 Burdick and Wydoski, 1989 Bluegill 75 10 30-88 Siewert and Cave, 1990 Bluegill 200 7 4-14 Barthel et al., 2003 Bluegill 685 3 1.3 Cooke et al., 2003b Pumpkinseed 175 3 0 Cooke et al., 2003b Rock bass 80 5 0 Cooke et al., 2001 Black bass 5 Lee, 1989 Largemouth bass 1106 1-2 3-16 Bennett et al., 1989 Largemouth bass 3283 <1 14 Schramm et al., 1985 Largemouth bass 3129 28 32 Seidensticker, 1977 Largemouth bass 261 14 19.4 Archer and Loyacano, 1975 Largemouth bass 1351 6 38 Rutledge and Pritchard, 1975 Largemouth bass 1422 7-23 30 May, 1973 Largemouth bass 1863 19 14.3 Welborn and Barkley, 1974 Largemouth bass 14-21 26.7 Schramm et al., 1987 Largemouth bass 285 60 11.2 Pelzman, 1978 Largemouth bass 2 3.2 Hartley and Moring, 1991 Smallmouth bass 70 7 0-11 Clapp and Clark, 1989 Smallmouth bass 634 20 4.2-47.3 Weidlein, 1989 Smallmouth bass 2 8.9 Hartley and Moring, 1991 Smallmouth bass 458 0-8.5 Bennett et al., 1989 Smallmouth bass 61 2 4.9 Jackson and Willis, 1991 Smallmouth bass 238 3 0 Dunmall et al., 2001 Guadalupe bass 85 3 2.4 Muoneke, 1991 Spotted bass 47 3 8.5 Muoneke, 1992a Walleye 180 12 1.1 Fletcher, 1987 Walleye 865 5 40 Goeman, 1991 Walleye 47 3 0 Parks and Kraai, 1991 Walleye 2357 3 21 Fielder and Johnson, 1992 Walleye 14-28 5-16 Payer et al., 1989 Walleye 240 2 0.8 Schaefer, 1989 Walleye 123 1 23 Rowe and Esseltine, 2002 Sauger 74 <1 4 Bettoli et al., 2000 Black drum 19 <1 0 Martin et al., 1987b Black drum 325 0 Martin et al., 1987a Red drum 171 <1 0 Martin et al., 1987b Red drum 121 3 4.13 Matlock et al., 1993 Red drum 38 3 44.7 Childress, 1989a Red drum 968 0.21 Martin et al., 1987a Spotted seatrout 401 7 37 Hegen et al., 1983 Spotted seatrout 43 <1 20-70 Martin et al., 1987b Spotted seatrout 52 7-9 0-56 Matlock and Dailey, 1981 Spotted seatrout 7 17-27 Hegen et al., 1987 Spotted seatrout 124 3 7.29 Matlock et al., 1993 Spotted seatrout 127 16.54 Martin et al., 1987a White seabass 221 90 10 Aalbers et al., 2004
---Arnejohs 12:20, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
- Approximately 40% of the studies cited in that table have survival rates very close to 95% or above. There are roughly 150 studies in the table. Hence, about 60 studies (a number?) have reported very high survival rates approaching 95% or above. — Dave 13:17, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
- This is a too simple approach to the problem. Firstly some species are more common than others. Secondly the mortality rate has to be related to the number of days after the catch and release. In many of the studies the number of days are less than one week. This only measure the immediate mortality while most of the catch and release related mortality is believed to be long-term consequences of the rough treatment. Rifts and wounds may expose the fish to fungus and bacteria which may kill the fish after several days, weeks or even longer time. Scientifically the statement in the article therefore is hard to defend or to make it clearer: It is a POV and it is probably incorrect. ---Arnejohs 13:31, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
- So you're saying the statement is true, but only misleading? That's not exactly a ringing endorsement . . . Ruakh 15:53, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
- ? I don’t really see your point. If you read my comment above you will see I classified the statement as a PointOfView which probably is incorrect. How you read this to “true but misleading” is hard for me to understand.---Arnejohs 17:52, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
- You misunderstand: I was replying to Dave's comment, not to yours. Ruakh 19:08, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
- I am sorry. Thank you for clarifying. --- Arnejohs 19:19, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
- No worries. :-) Ruakh 00:09, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
- I have now entered the POV check label on the basis of the above discussion. ---Arnejohs 17:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Someone needs to look at the biological aspect of this situation. When fish get hooked and are being reeled in, they are in the "fight or flight" mode, and are trying to swim away for their lives. They do not think "Oh, the fisherman is going to let me go. This is all just a sport. I will give a good struggle for fun." They are fighting for survival. This fight or flight mode (all animals and humans have this too) results in lactic acid fermentation. When too much lactate builds up in an organism, it will die. Even though you release the fish and they swim away and seem fine, you fail to see that they die a few days later due to this lactate buildup.
- I would like to mention that, sad as the fact may be that some released fish most certainly die of their experience, the survival rate for fish that are not returned to the water is zero (mortality = 100%). I find the "morality" issues raised here to be a bit out of place - surely there might be a morality of fishing (& hunting, etc.) article that could be referred to. Because the "problem" is the fishing, not the releasing. And as far as the lactic acid buildup biology, that is the reason for using "robust equipment" and minimising the length of the "fight". The opposite, using light tackle and maximising the struggle for the "pleasure" of it, results in a fish that is thoroughly exhausted and much less likely to survive. Any thoughts? human 00:54, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not sure a morality section would be worth including if it weren't that many people think catch-and-release is all hunky dory for the fish. It's reasonable for an article on catch-and-release to discuss the controversy: a lot of scientists have argued on a number of bases that it's not. —RuakhTALK 01:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
POV tag
editI have removed the POV-check tag, as it's been attached to the article for months now with no particular change either way. FCYTravis 13:29, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Pain Studies
editThye referenced articles which the author claims demonstrate pain sensitivity do not show any such thing. They clearly sow taht fish have chemical receptors in their mouths. the rubbing hey exhibit when venom is injected is a reaction to the chemical, not necessarily pain.
It is significant that NO study has shown such behavior when a fish is imapled by a hook. In fact, fish do not have pain receptors in their mouths, hence cannot feel the hook. The physiological reactions cited when fish are caught are actually reactions to being pulled though the water and dissipate very rapidly when pressure is relaxed on the line whether or not the hook is removed.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vintega (talk • contribs) 20:18, 22 February 2007 (UTC).
Recent edits
editI canged fishermen to sports fishers because the word fisherman describes a person catching fish for food or for sale, and is distinctly different from a person fishing for recreational purposes.
Fish fight because they feel the pull of the line, not because the hook in their mouth hurts. Millions of fishermen around the world have observed hooked fish not fighting until line pressure is applied to them. I have a science background, I know all about scientific papers etc, but just because this observation is not published in a scientific paper does not make it valid. I will be mentioning it in the article.
Also regarding the article. I have changed it so that it is serving its primary function as a quick reference for people who want to know how to catch and release fish properly. They look it up on Wikipedia and bang, they get quick tips on how to catch and release fish. The detailed information is then below for them to read if they so wish.
Codman 04:17, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
- I've removed your "Quick Tips for Effective Catch and Release" section, as that's not what an encyclopedia is for (see WP:NOT#IINFO); however, you may wish to contribute that information to Wikibooks, one of Wikipedia's sister projects: its goal is to make open-content textbooks, which seems to be your goal here. Once there's a Wikibook on the subject, this article can link to it in its "External links" section (by making use of the {{Wikibooks}} template). The full text that I removed is available at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Catch_and_release&diff=111769253&oldid=111757679. —RuakhTALK 06:09, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks, but I don't agree. I have put these tips under "Catch and Release Techniques"; "Catch and Release Techniques" is a logical sub-section to have in this article, and it is the logical sub-section in which to list the key compoments of catch and release methodology. I think this is a very reasonable compromise; we must list what the key components of catch and release methodolgy is. Shortly I will insert weblinks to Triple Grip treble hooks (which are perfect for barbless hook fishing) and Environets. Cheers, Codman 23:42, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
For reasons similar to those stated by Codman above, I moved the debate section to the end. Opponents of catch and release are insignificant in comparison to the efforts made by catch and release anglers to educate recreational anglers on proper handling of fish, including the reduction of waste and abuse. Perhaps the entire section should be placed in the article on Animal rights, indigenous hunting philosophy, or some other more appropriate place. JStripes 03:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- I totally agree. Will someone do this? Codman 23:20, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Links to products
editThere are several links in this article to websites that sell products such as catch-and-release nets. That seems like a conflict of interest to me. Should they be removed?
Togamoos (talk) 00:39, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, all five external links were commercial or weren't about catch and release. I have replaced them with focused links (now too many - that's another issue!). --Geronimo20 (talk) 03:50, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Barbless pic
editSeems this article is need of someone to take a picture of a barbless hook, neither pic included is one. 75.80.123.231 (talk) 00:47, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
Confusing sentence
editI found this sentence incredibly confusing: "New research indicates that bait mortality is more closely related to technique than to the fact that one is fishing bait, and that bait mortality is much lower than once thought." Part of the reason for the confusion is that this is the first time the terms "bait mortality" and "fish[ing] bait" appear in the article and their meaning is not established. Stephen C. Carlson (talk) 15:34, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
Relevancy and possible POV of unsourced claim
edit"The research does not explain why popular gamefish such as largemouth bass would intentionally prey on spiny fish and crustaceans, that regularly cause hook-like puncture wounds to the inside of their mouths."
That line has no citation, and seems to be a wink-and-nod toward the idea that fish do not feel oral pain. If no defense is given for why this line is included, I'm going to remove it. 71.162.96.31 (talk) 00:44, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
- Even so, it is a valid point that needs addressing. Perhaps there are strategic areas inside their mouth that can accommodate and heal punctures without distress. Instead of just deleting the comment because you don't like it, why not search the literature and see if any research explicitly addresses this point? --Epipelagic (talk) 01:10, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
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