Talk:Catalan Declaration of Independence

Merger proposal

I propose to that Catalonia Declaration of Independence and Catalonia's declaration of independence be merged into Catalan Declaration of Independence. Both articles are covering the exact same thing, and so should not be separate articles. Also, both names do not follow the grammatical standard of other countries (as can be seen on Declaration of independence. This is why in my proposal, both should be merged into this article. —SPESH531Other 23:01, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

@SuperSardus, Atlantic306, Independència, Arthistorian1977, and Discasto: All that have edited either of these articles I have tagged. —SPESH531Other 23:09, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

• Merge but be mindful to keep both versions of the content, or write an appropriate NPOV article. Currently it seems that one page was written from a Catalan independentist POV and the other from a Spanish centralist POV. — JFG ^talk 05:10, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

I find it funny that my article looks like it was written "from a Spanish centralist POV". I guess in my effort to stay neutral I ended up tilting to the other side? It still looks neutral to me, though. The other article (as you can tell by its content and the author's name) is one-sided.

As for the title: the declaration itself has a completely different name ("Declaration from the representatives of Catalonia"), so how do you set on a standard name? Why "Catalan declaration of independence" and not "Catalonia's"?

Also, I'm not sure what grammatical standard you are talking about, since the page you linked provides several different wordings. Some use the demonym (Albanian declaration of independence), some use the country's name with no genitive (Kosovo declaration of independence, Montenegro declaration of independence), some use the country's name with saxon genitive (Tibet's declaration of independence. SuperSardus (talk) 12:48, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Speaking about the title: Aside from U.S. states, Tibet is the only one to use "'s". The majority (by a landslide) of the terms uses involve the demonym ending of "-an" such as, "Albanian", "Belgian", "Bosnian", "Bulgarian", "Catalan" (which has is listed thrice), "Chilean", "Colombian", "Dominican", etc. Tibet is the odd one out, while the standard involves "-an" (When the name applies. For example, Argentina is not "Argentinan", but rather "Argentine".) Regions listed that do not have this "-an" at the end, mainly state the country name: "First Republic of Armenia" or "Pakistan Resolution". And there are the occasional ones such as "Kosovo", "Montenegro", "Somaliland", "Texas", "United States", and "Vermont", but that is 6 out of many. What is used the most is "-an". —SPESH531Other 04:13, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

I support merging "Catalonia Declaration of Independence" into "Catalan Declaration of Independence" but not "Declaration from the representatives of Catalonia" to comply with our other article titles as this would make it much easier to find the article. BrendonTheWizard (talk) 12:03, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Agreed, merge Catalonia's (etc.) with Catalan Declaration of Independence for consistency with other declarations of independence. Additionally, the title "Declaration of the representatives of Catalonia" neither unambiguously identifies what is referred to, nor is the common name for what is referred to. FOARP (talk) 12:24, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

@SuperSardus, JFG, Spesh531, BrendonTheWizard, and FOARP: Declaration from the representatives of Catalonia was used by a source and is the actual name of the document, even though is not a good title as only some representatives signed it and not as MPs is probably the best at this point. The other two, on the other hand, can not be used. There is a major difference in the case of this document and other declarations of independence cited: This document was signed on purpose outside of the parliament's plenary session so it has no legislative value. Since it was signed outside of a plenary session the people that signed it did not do so officially as MPs. The wording in some of the versions seems to try to mislead the readers into thinking it was a declaration of independence as we all understand it, but it was not. As proof, there was an official request by the central Government asking Puigdemont if he had declared it in his speech. There was no reference to this document as it has no relevance in that sense. There are many Reliable Sources to back it up.

Ideas about a more adequate title would also be welcome.--Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 15:52, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 26 October 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. This was a malformed request from the get-go. We don't move redirects. Future move discussions should be initiated at Talk:Declaration of Independence of Catalonia. See § Title histories – wbm1058 (talk) 15:43, 29 October 2017 (UTC) wbm1058 (talk) 15:43, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

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Catalan Declaration of Independence → Declaration from the representatives of Catalonia – It would appear in the Merger proposal above, that a consensus (between @Spesh531, JFG, SuperSardus, BrendonTheWizard, and FOARP) was forming around Catalan Declaration of Independence as a superior title to either Catalonia Declaration of Independence or Catalonia's declaration of independence. However, @Crystallizedcarbon made some good points on why Declaration from the representatives of Catalonia, which is now the title of the article, might be best. I think we'd be grateful if he could provide Reliable Sources to advance his argument. I am resolving the initial merge discussion and opening this move one. I am somewhat neutral between these two choices, but think we now should establish a consensus as to which is best, below. Greg (talk) 21:22, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Than you Greggydude for your analysis. Here are some sources. Some are currently in the article:

• This article from El País: La declaración de independencia de Cataluña que han firmado los partidos soberanistas (in Spanish) cites "Aunque el texto es el de una declaración de independencia en toda regla, no ha sido registrada ni votada en el Parlament, con lo que diputados independentistas consideran que no tiene valor jurídico sino simbólico:" Translation: "Even though the text is that of a full right declaration of independence, it has not been registered or voted in the Parliament, so independentist MPs consider that it does not have legal value, but rather symbolic value."
• This other article also sources the symbolic nature of the document: Este es el texto firmado por los diputados independentistas en el Parlament and includes a copy.
• this two examples make reference to the document as "Declaration of the representatives of Catalonia" in English: Spanish Government Meets After Catalonia Declares 'Suspended' Independence and Catalan leader signs document declaring independence from Spain There are more sources that use that same title.

I have noticed that they use "Declaration of" instead of "Declaration from", so we may have to rename the article to "Declaration of the representatives of Catalonia". I think there is no need to move Catalan Declaration of Independence as it is a redirect. I hoped that helped. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 22:36, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

According to the news it is possible that tomorrow we may have an actual declaration of independence from Puigdemont or the Parliament. If that is the case it should have its own article unless they somehow vote on Parliament to make this document a valid declaration. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 22:42, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

I don't think the title of a single Spanish-language article is sufficient to substantiate the claim that it, is the common-name in English. This is particularly the case when this article now contains a section called Declaration of independence to specify what exactly is being talked about (apparently the title does not do this). However, I am also aware that the situation is moving rapidly so for the next few days keeping Catalan Declaration of Independence as a re-direct is OK. We should know more next week. FOARP (talk) 09:44, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

There are many English RS that use it. I included two examples but a search in Google reveals more. I do agree that it may be best to leave it as a redirect as there should be new developments probably as soon as today. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 10:14, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Support rename to "Catalan Declaration of Independence" - Every declaration from the Venezuelan, Estonian, and virtually all countries that use the -an ending as their denonym can be found with this standard title format. Even if we could have previously disregarded our common naming conventions before due to how the first declaration signed was symbolic and was promptly suspended in order to potentially negotiate with Spain, as Crystallizedcarbon noted, there should be new developments as soon as today. As recently as three minutes ago from when I'm typing this, there's headlines that today Catalonia's parliament officially declared independence from Spain this time. It's important to remember what this does and does not mean; we shouldn't jump to conclusions and start adding Catalonia to lists of sovereign nations because they are not recognized by any other state as independent (though it's now accurate to start adding it to lists of non-UN states not recognized by any state). That being said, we should absolutely utilize longstanding naming standards in order to make the article readily accessible to any users interested. BrendonTheWizard (talk) 14:15, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

I agree with BrendonTheWizard. There needs to be an article titled "Catalan Declaration of Independence" In it it should be clear that today is the date of that declaration and its content must be based mainly on what happened today. The "Declaration of the representatives of Catalonia" can be used as a basis or could be a separate article. Its text has been the base of what has been voted today. If we choose a single article, the events of today should be added and then it can be renamed. I would not add it just yet to any list of non-UN states at least until we can provide direct quotes from reliable sources to justify it and not use Wikipedia's voice to state it.--Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 15:01, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Support - As per above. I'm not sure about adding Catalonia to lists of states yet though, since they are still yet to establish a state, rather than merely declare one. A subtle difference, but none the less a real one - it is possible to simply declare independence on paper and never actually act on the declaration. FOARP (talk) 16:21, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

I agree with FOARP. This source states just that: Is Catalonia independent?. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 17:03, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose – @Greggydude: Your rationale for the move is confusing, because you write that the proposed target, "Declaration from the representatives of Catalonia]], "is now the title of the article". Unless it was moved out-of-process, I see the current title as "Catalan Declaration of Independence" and I think it should remain this way. Since the article was originally written, Catalonia did formally declare independence (on Friday 27 October), so the arguments for moving this article to the title of an earlier document are moot. — JFG ^talk 09:15, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Alright, things are moving fast: looks like the former two articles were merged, and the resulting article was renamed "Declaration of Independence of Catalonia" without a prior discussion. I think we should abort this now-outdated move request and open a new one to suggest "Catalan Declaration of Independence" as the stable title. @Greggydude, FOARP, and Crystallizedcarbon: y'all agree? — JFG ^talk 09:20, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Things are indeed moving fast! Support ending this proposal and beginning again. Do you want to take the reigns this time? Greg (talk) 17:57, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Forgot to ping a few other participants: @Spesh531, SuperSardus, and BrendonTheWizard: Agree to close this and open a new one at Talk:Declaration of Independence of Catalonia? — JFG ^talk 09:22, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

If other editors support opening another discussion I'd be okay with that, though my position would mirror what I've said in the previous discussions. BrendonTheWizard (talk) 09:31, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, there shouldn't have been a movement without discussion, and not to a title that is out of whack with other declarations of independence (e.g., United States Declaration of Independence, Estonian Declaration of Independence). Support moving to Catalan Declaration of Independence.

I don't see a great difference between "Catalan declaration of independence" and "Declaration of independence of Catalonia". When I created this article I originally called it "Catalonia's declaration of independence" which I recognize wasn't the best choice. It was then modified to "Declaration from the representatives of Catalonia". Good choice, since that was the name of the document. Now that a proper declaration has taken place, I find it correct to include everything (the 10 October written statement and the 27 October declaration) in the same page. SuperSardus (talk) 15:28, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Title histories

This page was created first as a redirect to Catalan independence referendum, 2017 on 4 October. Two articles on this topic were started within a two-hour window on 10 October, under different titles. At 23:25, 13 October 2017 an editor aware of both content forks, Spesh531, made a malformed request to merge the two articles to this page. See § Merger proposal.

• At 12:55, 4 October 2017‎ FOARP redirected Catalan Declaration of Independence to Catalan independence referendum, 2017#Catalan declaration of independence
• At 20:45, 10 October 2017‎ Independència created Catalonia Declaration of Independence with 'The Catalonia Declaration of Independence is the statement signed by the independence majority of the Parliament of Catalonia...
• At 22:04, 10 October 2017‎ SuperSardus created Catalonia's declaration of independence with 'A declaration of independence was signed...'
• At 15:20, 16 October 2017 Crystallizedcarbon moved page Catalonia's declaration of independence to Declaration from the representatives of Catalonia (Title was confusing as it could have been interpreted as a formal declaration of independence, which it was not since it was signed outside of Parliament)
• At 07:47, 25 October 2017‎ Crystallizedcarbon redirected Catalonia Declaration of Independence to Declaration from the representatives of Catalonia: the most complete article with the actual title of the document. There has been no declaration of independence with a legislative value, signed outside plenary session. Nothing additional to merge. See talk)
• At 21:22, 26 October 2017, Greggydude made a malformed request to move this redirect (Catalan Declaration of Independence). We don't move redirects.
• At 16:59, 27 October 2017 2017NewYearNewMe moved page Declaration from the representatives of Catalonia to Declaration of Independence of Catalonia

— wbm1058 (talk) 15:34, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.