Talk:Cat Stevens/Archive 3

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The following year, he adopted his Muslim name Yusuf Islam

This means: In the year 1978 he adopted his name Yusuf Islam. So why do you not change this entry? His name was and has been since then: Yusuf Islam. He is called Yusuf Islam for thirty years right now. So why do so-called "administrators" call this Wikipedia article "Cat Stevens"? (Maybe, they did not notice that the person has changed its name meanwhile?) Hans Rosenthal (10102008)

Because "Cat Stevens" is the name he is known by to millions of people who never heard of "Yusuf Islam." And an encyclopedia is intended to provide the most easily identifiable information about a person first. While there is nothing wrong, per se, with your suggestion, it would add an extra step for the huge majority of people looking to find information on this subject. And that extra step is the antithesis of how an encyclopedia, even an online one, should work. Also, he has re-released recordings recently with the name "Cat Stevens," so he continues to use it -- clearly when he wants wider public identification. Monkeyzpop (talk) 21:22, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Hans, you know the answer to this question because you have been told it many times before. Please don't start disrupting this article again. Thank you. Tvoz/talk 21:33, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Album chronology in Cat Stevens template

Quote from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums#Yusuf Islam album chornology:

Hi WikiProject Albums. I noticed that the album chronology for Yusuf Islam doesn't match the list in {{Cat Stevens}}. For example:

• Prayers of the Last Prophet lists no previous album (as opposed to The Life of the Last Prophet identified in the template) and An Other Cup as the next album (as opposed to A Is for Allah identified in the template)
• I Look I See lists "Bismillah" (which isn't listed in the template at all) as the previous album and An Other Cup as the next album (rather than "Indian Ocean" as identified in the template)
• An Other Cup lists I Look I See as the previous album (rather than "Footsteps in the Light" as identified in the template)

Also, someone may like to give consideration as to whether, in the Gold article, An Other Cup should be listed as the next album in the Cat Stevens chronolgy - elsewhere the Yusuf Islam and Cat Stevens chronologies seem to be considered separately. --- Done

It's not my area of expertise, so I don't propose to try and fix it myself but I thought I'd mention it in case anyone here would like to have a go. DH85868993 (talk) 03:35, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I thought this request would find a better response here. -- Pepve (talk) 20:44, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Working backward, I fixed the Gold article album chronology by adding "as Yusuf Islam" with An Other Cup. Haven't looked at the template. Tvoz |talk 01:14, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Reference 21 doesn't seem to work. The link needs to be updated. Also, does anyone know how much of the media was actually at the lecture that caused the whole debacle dealing with Salmon Rushdie? There are certainly multiple media outlets that have reported the news, but they all maybe getting the information from one source. If somebody knows where the media was getting there information on the subject, it would definitely be worth posting. It could possibly fall under original research, but everyone else can be the judge of that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.39.203.200 (talk) 20:28, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Recommend some archiving

I think some archiving should be done with this talk page. There is debate here obviously settled, from two years ago. --leahtwosaints (talk) 01:15, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Done. Tvoz/talk 03:29, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Introduction of who I am- I wish to help

If there is no "Cat Stevens/Yusuf" workgroup, (I don't see mention of one here) I'll introduce myself: I've been working primarily on roots music, however, being a convert to Islam and a Westerner, I am sure I can supply a few valuable references (many of us watched Yusuf's changes both out of the Music biz and his re-emergence into it avidly)! Aside from that I think I can help clarify some terms which are fundamental to understanding his motives in part, and in particular terms used, such as Sharia laws, Nasheed songs, and debates over such issues as to whether music, shaving, and other things are haram (forbidden) or not. Please feel free to ask if you have questions or leave notes on my talk page. I see great possibility for contributing in referencing, etc. I'd also like to know you all, too. :)

--leahtwosaints (talk) 01:33, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Nice to meet you Leah - please keep in mind that we need verifiable sources (see WP:V) - verifiability takes precedence over truth - in other words, knowing that something is true from personal experience doesn't work -that would be considered original research which is not allowed. Reliable sources are the key. Tvoz/talk 03:29, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Alun Davies needs a page

One more thing. Alun Davies (not Alun Davies Welsh politician) played with Stevens as far back as Tea for the Tillerman, having met him as a session musician who specialized in fingerwork on the guitar. There needs to be a page for him, with a disambiguation page as well, since two prominent people in the UK hold that name. A bassist from Canada recently also just died holding the same name-- (that's three of them), in February, 2008. [1] Soon after Davies joined Stevens, so did Jean Roussell on keyboards and organ. They remained with him until he left the music buisness in the late 1970s. Both of them remained great friends with Stevens/Yusuf- for over 27 years! When he re-emerged on Later.. With Jools Holland in his first TV performance, they were both there. This says a lot about the man, I think. Rousell was too elderly to remain, but Davies now played at Yusuf's side just as if no time went by, only to die in Feb., 2008. He did have a solo career that Stevens and the other bandmates supported, releasing the album, Daydo, in 1972 but it never took off, and he was content to live in Stevens' shadow. [2] --- Done

--leahtwosaints (talk) 01:47, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Leah - I think an article about Alun Davies could fly if it were neutrally presented and well-sourced - assuming there are independent sources that talk about him. You might want to take a stab at writing one, first as a stub perhaps. Alternately, you could add his name to Wikipedia:Requested articles/music/Performers and bands, and perhaps someone will start an article - but that can be a slow process. As for disambiguation, I added a tag to the politician's page. If an article is written about the musician, they would be cross linked; if there are more than two Alun Davies' we can set up a disambiguation page. Tvoz/talk 03:29, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I knew that, having worked on a lot of Dixie Chicks sources.. but I'm glad you said that b/c often new folks do not know about that. Frankly, I think that some of Stevens' songs as pages would be the next step though. Some like "How Can I Tell You", and "The Wind", and others seem appropriate. --leahtwosaints (talk) 10:54, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Noticed things to work on.

Some things needing change:

• Reference #45 (I think) uses Google video for the reference which is no longer working and should not be used, just as You Tube and My Space are bad references since anyone can change them on a whim- the result here is that the ref no longer works.
• Why are we mentioning awards given to Stevens-Islam throughout the text only to repeat it all under Awards? They are then wikified twice.
• The Awards section should really be trimmed down. Some things like the RIAA Gold or Platinum status dont need repeating as to what it is, and what this signifies, since the proper reference will speak for itself. How about condensing awards for The First Cut is the Deepest, with two references?
• Question about the box for the ongoing study of material related to Cat Stevens. Why is there a mention of Folk Music there? That link only takes you to a disambiguation page on Folk Music, and I dont see the connection to the article(S) at all. --leahtwosaints (talk) 11:11, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

cat steven and his views of jews, israel, Terrorism/Freedom Fighters.

aharon42 (talk) 07:15, 27 August 2008 (UTC) there are an enormous number of direct quotes from Cat Stevens where he states his negative views of Jews and Israel. There is also a lot of documentation from London Financial Times, AP, Maariv, Michelle Malkin, the Canadian Post, etc, Jawa Report, etc. of his meeting, speaking, financial support of different Freedom Fighter/ Insurgent/ Terrorist/ Jihad organizations and their front groups; Hamas, CAIR, Hisbollah, AL-Quds, etc. Shouldn't this material be included for the sake of completeness? It would add a constructive evidential counterweight to balance out the putative image of him being a man of peace. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aharon42 (talk • contribs) 07:24, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Please provide some of the "enormous number of direct quotes" in reliable sources here on the talk page for evaluation, and, of course, any reliably sourced statements he made in contradiction or repudiation of any such statements. And seeing as he won a libel suit against British newspapers that made the very claim you are making here, I am removing that claim from here as a violation of our BLP policies. But by all means, provide reliable evidence here - it will be interesting to see how the newspapers could have missed it when they defended themselves. Thank you. Tvoz/talk 07:56, 27 August 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aharon42 (talk • contribs)

Please do not act against Wikipedia policies by artificially raising the bar for the inclusion of material or sources that you disagree with, especially as this is the whole point of the discussion page, to properly vet sources, claims, counterclaims, etc. It is not logical to ban the discussion of the discussion of controversial facts.. I note that this issue has been mentioned previously in the archives and not deleted. I assume it was not included in the article up to this point either because it lacked documentation, was false, or was not properly researched. This section was initiated to give the wiki community the opportunity to help each other document and discuss the controversy sorrounding this aspect of Cat Stevens. If suitable documentation can not be found, then of course, this section should not develop into a section that will be added to the article itself, especially in light of the libel cases that Cat Stevens brought against newspapers in Britain. A lost libel case in Britain is not substantial evidence because the libel laws in that country set a very high bar for the press, unlike in the US. It should signal us to tread very carefully though. aharon42 (talk) 15:47, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Aharon, it is in direct support of Wikipedia policies that I removed potentially libelous material from here - read WP:BLP: talk pages are also covered:"These principles apply to biographical material about living persons found anywhere in Wikipedia, including user and talk pages." I will look later at what you've posted here below, but want to be sure you understand that the policy applies to talk pages as well as in mainspace regarding potentially libelous material. And whether or not British courts set a higher bar than American, a successful libel suit cannot be ignored by us. Tvoz/talk 17:56, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

What is the danger of violating WP:BLP if we mention his reported association with HAMAS and his reply to it, along with the liable lawsuit judgement? http://www.usatoday.com/life/music/news/2006-12-14-yusuf-islam_x.htm

How, for example is http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=CSTB&p_theme=cstb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=106023D7E367275D&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM

libelous?

Or http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/07/magazine/07WWLN_Q4.t.html?_r=1&oref=slogin ?

This is an opinion piece http://michellemalkin.com/2004/09/22/and-dont-come-back-now-yhear/ but it gives sources. --BoogaLouie (talk) 22:41, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say the pieces are libelous, I said that we have to proceed carefully because the accusation involved here is precisely what he won a libel case about. See my replies below; I've included the USA Today piece. Tvoz/talk 07:02, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/185328.php. November 11, 2006 The Jawa Report has obtained evidence that Yusuf Islam, the artist formerly known as Cat Stevens, was once connected to radical clerics Omar Bakri Mohammed & Sheikh Omar Abdel-Rahman. According to at least one credible source, he was also involved in terrorist financing

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/columns/column092204.shtml Islam Denied Entry: Cat Stevens’ “Peace Train” of Islamic Hate Derailed September 22 , 2004 It’s not just what Islam ne Stevens wrote in the anti-Semitic pamphlet, it’s for whom he wrote it: the Islamic Association for Palestine (IAP), a HAMAS front-group with ties to Al-Qaeda.

this is Cat Steven's comment on the issue. When he gives money to Hamas fronted charity organizations he says its not political and its just to help out. http://www.usatoday.com/life/music/news/2006-12-14-yusuf-islam_x.htm In 2000, he was denied entry to Israel for allegedly making donations to Hamas. "I have never knowingly supported or given money to Hamas," says Islam, who repeatedly has condemned terrorism and Islamic extremism. "At the time I was reported to have done it, I didn't know such a group existed. Some people give a political interpretation to charity. We were horrified at how people were suffering in the Holy Land."

http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=CSTB&p_theme=cstb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=106023D7E367275D&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM Singer spoke at '98 event for group tied to Hamas Chicago Sun-Times (IL) TORONTO -- Yusuf Islam, the singer formerly known as Cat Stevens, was the guest of honor at a Toronto fund-raising dinner hosted by an organization that has since been identified by the Canadian government as a front for the Palestinian terrorist group Hamas.

UPI January 14, 2005 Friday 1:41 AM EST Donations led to Cat Stevens' deportation News reports several years ago linked a Web site and charitable foundation he heads to the Palestinian militant group Hamas, and to the "Blind Sheikh" -- Omar Abdel-Rahman, convicted of involvement in a terrorist plot in New York city a decade ago. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aharon42 (talk • contribs) 19:21, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Cat Stevens was guest of Canadian Hamas front: Muslim singer criticized Judaism as a 'so-called' religion BYLINE: Stewart Bell, National Post SECTION: NEWS; Pg. A1 DATELINE: TORONTO TORONTO - Yusuf Islam, the British singer formerly known as Cat Stevens, was the guest of honour at a Toronto fundraising dinner hosted by an organization that has since been identified by the Canadian government as a "front" for the Palestinian terrorist group Hamas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aharon42 (talk • contribs) 19:13, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

http://www.opinioneditorials.com/guestcontributors/gfitleberg_20040920.html This has shocked a lot of his fans internationally who were suprisingly unaware of the singers support of terrorism, most notably Hamas, for many years. Israel has had him on a watch list for many years and he has been forbidden to enter its borders for some time.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/07/magazine/07WWLN_Q4.t.html Yusuf Muslim direct quote about Hamas. NY times interview. For all your devotion to education and good deeds, government officials in various countries have tried to link you to extremist groups, including Hamas. What do you think of Hamas?

That’s an extremely loaded question.

Can you try to answer it?

I have never supported a terrorist group or any group that did other than charity and good to humankind.

in that Times piece you left out "So would you say you have contempt for a terrorist group like Hamas? I wouldn’t put those words in my mouth. I wouldn’t say anything on that issue.

I have no problem with the biography of living persons policy, but it is also true that living people can clarify their positions and it seems that this Yusuf cat does not wish to speak clearly, it's all in circles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.68.152.245 (talk) 23:54, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

http://michellemalkin.com/2004/09/22/and-dont-come-back-now-yhear/ She cites the London Financial Times and AP and Maariv, in her article. From his home in Great Britain, Islam/Stevens has also raised tens of thousands of dollars for Hamas, in cooperation with the British fundraising arm of Hamas, known as the Relief Fund for Lebanon and Palestine. The government claims that during that trip he delivered tens of thousands of dollars to Hamas, a militant Islamic group, the Maariv daily reported…

I have found other sources but they are in Hebrew and am also looking through original Arabic sources (It takes longer because my Arabic is not fluent) How do I include these in a way that will still allow non Hebrew, Arabic, editors a way to help me vet these sources?? aharon42 (talk) 15:10, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Aharon, I have looked it over and think that we do handle the deportation from Israel/Hamas accusation sufficiently for a biography of his whole life, without giving it undue weight according to encyclopedia policies - however I've added the USA Today source and quote to support it a bit more. The Newsbank and UPI pieces are incomplete and in an abundance of caution, given the situation, I would not agree to add something that can't be seen in its entirety at the source. Malkin, Schlussel, and several others are blogs and opinion pieces, so generally not used if there are more reliable sources which there are. We have the accusation, we have his refutation, we have his successfully mounted libel case and as previously discussed, we must proceed carefully. I believe the matter is covered sufficiently. The NYT piece is in the Further reading section; I don't see that the quote you mention adds anything of substance for this section. Again, these incidents are only a part of his life story, and this is not an article about controversies surrounding him, it is his bio that needs to cover a lot of ground. Tvoz/talk 07:02, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Tvoz. I understand completely what you are saying about giving proper weight in the article. I know that editing an article is a subtle interplay of lots of competing issues and it's obvious that you maintain that kind of meta-editing perspective while you make your decisions. So I think my only bone of contention is that the article's weight is leaning towards that of Cat Stevens- the musician and philanthropist, in other words pretty much how he would choose to describe himself... and if you read articles from the last 20 years or so, everyone perceives him otherwise.. I agree no major changes should be made in the article itself, so I propose two changes. One, some kind of small addition to the intro to the article to capture how Cat Stevens is seen today by most writers. I do not even know what general word to use that is acceptable but only having musician, and philanthropist kind of misses the boat.. Second, WP has not at all addressed his negative views on Jews and Israel. The Canadian Post says he gave a speech to a group that has made very strong anti-Jewish statements (See my references in this section). Can we have another article then addressing this? This would then not throw off the balance of the main article yet it would allow a more complete description of Cat Steven's views to be accurately portrayed.aharon42 (talk) 08:34, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that's an accurate assessment - most neutral news articles, like the recent New York Times Solomon piece, do view him as a musician and philanthropist. Michelle Malkin and Debbie Schlussel are partisan commentators - they do not represent mainstream and they do not represent neutral commentary, nor does Pipes. In my opinion, the reason there even is a Wikipedia biography - the reason he is notable - is that he was Cat Stevens, the musician. All the rest flows from that, so that should be the main thrust of this article. I'd be happy to see the Cat Stevens musician part continue to be expanded - that is his notability. In the last few years, however, his re-emergence as a musician is certainly of note, and I don't object to its expansion if that career continues to attract attention. As for his views on Jews and Israel, we would need something more than a headline from the Canadian National Post - we cannot see what else that article said, nor do we know how he has responded to it. And I don't know that it's notable - I suspect I would vehemently object personally to his comments if they are as you suggest, but that doesn't make them notable. Better sources would be needed. As for a separate article - not clear that any of this is notable enough to warrant a fork, unless there is a multitude of source material. Tvoz/talk 20:43, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

While we're at it why don't we add a sentence explaining what Islam said about Salman Rushdie.

The current paragraph ...

The singer attracted controversy in 1989, during an address to students at London's Kingston University, where he was asked about the fatwa calling for the death of author Salman Rushdie. Newspapers quickly interpreted his response as support for the fatwa, but he released a statement the following day clarifying that he had not been supporting vigilantism, and was merely explaining the legal Islamic punishment for blasphemy.

... talks about the newspaper interpretation and his statemetn the following day but says nothing about what he actually said.

This would be better:

The singer attracted controversy in 1989, during an address to students at London's Kingston University, where he was asked about the fatwa calling for the death of author Salman Rushdie. Newspapers quickly interpreted his response -- "He must be killed. The Qur'an makes it clear - if someone defames the prophet, then he must die." -- as support for the fatwa. Yusuf released a statement the following day clarifying that he had not been supporting vigilantism, and was merely explaining the legal Islamic punishment for blasphemy.

Cat Stevens wanted me dead The Sunday Telegraph (LONDON) May 6, 2007 Sunday In an article in The New York Times on May 22, 1989, Craig R Whitney reported Stevens/Islam saying on a British television programme "that rather than go to a demonstration to burn an effigy of the author Salman Rushdie, 'I would have hoped that it'd be the real thing'. He added that "if Mr Rushdie turned up at his doorstep looking for help, 'I might ring somebody who might do more damage to him than he would like. I'd try to phone the Ayatollah Khomeini and tell him exactly where this man is'. In a subsequent interview with The New York Times, Mr Whitney added, Stevens/Islam, who had seen a preview of the programme, said that he "stood by his comments. aharon42 (talk) 23:10, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

This incident was discussed at great length and with some rancor before, and we finally reached a consensus on the wording in this article as you see it- a summary of the much longer separate subarticle. This has remained stable for a long time and I think we should respect the consensus as it is. If we add more here, we also have to add more of the denials, and the section will inevitably grow too large and take on more weight than it should. The compromise wording you see was carefully and deliberately crafted to be what it is, and I wouldn't agree to add more to it here. Tvoz/talk 07:02, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I just wanted to add that Tvoz properly corrected me when he pointed out that I needed to document these more controversial claims. He was quite forceful but after reading many of his edits I see it because he is very committed to NPOV and WP:BLP policies.I still am a little unclear though if we need to redocument issues that have already been documented in previous discussions in the archives and on other wiki pages. Also where the bar should be exactly for these sort of discussions about whether we are allowed to discuss something on the discussion page (not in the article itself, I absolutely understand that).. I know that in the end we might as well err on the side of caution but it does seem to be a gray area and when I look at other articles about controversial people and subjects the editors do seem to have a little more room to maneuver in the discussion pages and there is no one clear standard. aharon42 (talk) 17:45, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

As discussed elsewhere, talk pages are also subject to BLP policy. Tvoz/talk 07:02, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I am including the most pertinent of the sources that I have found. Some blog links have been included because they cite reputable media sources that we need to document further. aharon42 (talk) 20:20, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

See Also and "Notable Instruments"

Hello, I've noticed some things that don't feel right, and made some changes, so.. First, I removed the piano and acoustic guitar from "Notable Instruments". The Baldwin Piano I checked up on. The company kept going out of business! That's not exactly an advertisement to buy one! And, heck, I have an acoustic guitar! So does nearly every kid learning to play. The only instrument I kept was the Stevie Ray Vaughn Fender Telecaster. It's a costly signature version of the mighty Fender Telecaster guitar favored by the likes of Eric Clapton and Jeff Beck, and it is referenced in the text.

The "See also" section-- What IS that? Teaser and the Firecat is in Rolling Stone's 500 greatest albums, but that's also referenced in the text. The intro tells people Cat Stevens was raised as a Christian, but converted to Islam. Why see also Converts to Islam? Or see Ex-Christians? Last, his Platinum albums, the $1.5 million per year he still receives from them- all in the text referenced again should tell folks that he's one of the highest selling artists. Even if my logic is faulty on all four here, the text, references, and at the bottom of the page, the lists will always show this stuff. So why the "See Also" section? I'm not trying to be mean, but there's a lot to cover with this article, and all the extra stuff after Further reading, (See also, Notes), that kind of thing don't seem worthy of a GA article. Am I right? --leahtwosaints (talk) 20:34, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Ingrid Wickman

I have been questioned about a sentence I put in here about two years ago, describing Yusuf Islam's life in Sweden, for some months, back in the '50s.

If you want to know where I got the reference to Yusuf's mum, go check it out in the Wikipedia page dedicated to the Swedish town of Gävle: you'll find out that Yusuf's mother was called Ingrid Wickman and she was born and raised in Gävle. That's what Wikipedia itself states, it's not just me.

I read about Yusuf's life in Sweden and his relationship with his uncle Hugo in loads of articles from the Internet. Just to mention one of them, check out the Melody Maker 1972 article featured in Yusuf's fan site called Majicat. You'll certainly get it.

Bye mates. Gianmaria Framarin (talk) 20:48, 02 October 2008 (GMT)

I'll check on it, if nobody has already. Thanks. --leahtwosaints (talk) 14:32, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Notable instruments

We need to eliminate the "notable instruments" section from the infobox. There is only one source that says he bought a "Stevie Ray Vaughn Fender Telecaster" in 2007, which is referenced in the text, but questions have been raised about whether that's the correct name for the guitar, and more importantly, he is not particularly known for playing this guitar which is what that field in the infobox is for. See Template: Infobox Musical artist#Notable instruments. Tvoz/talk 04:29, 9 December 2008 (UTC)